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  •  IF the march calls for electoral uprising... (0+ / 0-)

    ...to stomp down the Republicans for this kind of shit, once and for all...

    That would be a good thing, for a change.

    If it calls for, or insinuates, electoral boycott or splitting, AS IF there's "no difference" between the parties, then it will Only serve the interests of the pigs they are protesting, no matter how incisive and poignant the critique or the "action" may be.

    The real, fundamental, root issue is democracy, which is the Only solution to Any of the many urgent issues confronting us.

    This is an important distinction, which seems beyond the comprehension of too many Occupy and other "radical" activists, unfortunately.

    Democracy is the most fundamental revolutionary principle.

    by Radical def on Fri Feb 17, 2012 at 10:31:47 AM PST

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    •  Global Warming is not a party-specific issue. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      An Affirming Flame

      Neither party is even remotely close to being a decisive factor in the war against climate change. In this case, since the earth's not counting "leaners" or accepting compromises, the consequences will be disastrous whichever party we follow.

      Until a party takes up a responsible stance that accepts the consensus of the scientific community and acts accordingly, we would be FOOLS to pretend that either party is going to save the planet from warming spiraling out of control toward mass extinction. In fact, we'd be FOOLS to think that government or business will take up policies to prevent disaster. Humans have destroyed their environments and had to move on in numerous occasions in the past. If we are going to avoid doing that on a planetary level, only We are going to make that happen, over the opposition of government and its owners.

      Sorry, the survival of the planet and mankind, to my way of thinking, is way beyond politics. We may have our "political reality", they earth has the reality.

      This, too, shall pass. Just like the last global ecological cataclysm. C'est la vie, dude. Take a chill pill, recite the serenity prayer, go with the flow and the moderates into that "goodnight".

      by Words In Action on Fri Feb 17, 2012 at 10:55:52 AM PST

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      •  The "fools"... (0+ / 0-)
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        ...are those who would hand the power back to the Republicans with electoral boycott and splitting memes, such as "no difference" between the parties.

        Also, those who would assert, so absolutely irrationally and disingenuously, that the present administration coulda woulda shoulda gotten more optimal results while subject to rightwing majorities in the House and Senate, since day one, with all those remnant Blue Dog ilk in there.

        Right Now is the chance to bring forward the better Democrats for the primaries, to improve the field for the general election, and to mobilize the masses to rise up, electorally, to seize the power in November, for real.

        The ice caps are melting faster and faster.

        It's do or die.

        Seize the Time!

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        Democracy is the most fundamental revolutionary principle.

        by Radical def on Fri Feb 17, 2012 at 11:13:19 AM PST

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        •  It's not either or. (0+ / 0-)

          You can fight to maximize Dem presence in government and you can out everyone's feet to the fire to deal with Global Warming.

          Because, as I said, no group of politicians won't be bought and sold and tied up by the plutocrats enough to prevent govt policy from ever catching up with climate change.

          It's not a matter of saying coulda shoulda woulda when it comes to the earth. You either do or you don't. It's a yoda thing. We do or we don't. If you put all your eggs in hoping the Dem party is going to do it, you may as well take out the hari kari knife. It'll never happen. It's been going on at the U.N. for 20 years now. The non-UN kyoto signatories met their limited goals. This corporatist state will not deal without a "revolution" in the behavior of the populace.

          You put 5 million people on the street in general strike over corporate/government climate change every Monday, indefinitely, in ever increasing numbers, things will start happen. Things that will NEVER happen through electoral politics.

          It will take the govt 50 yrs to respond to this crisis based on what scientists are saying today, if we're lucky. Sorry, game over. If that's your game plan...

          This, too, shall pass. Just like the last global ecological cataclysm. C'est la vie, dude. Take a chill pill, recite the serenity prayer, go with the flow and the moderates into that "goodnight".

          by Words In Action on Fri Feb 17, 2012 at 11:31:49 AM PST

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          •  This is not 1800's Europe, or 1917 Russia (0+ / 0-)
            300

            Nor is this Tunisia, or Egypt.

            This is the USA, going into the 21st Century.

            What's Not going to work is mindless ideologues parsing catechisms of revolutionary theory from 100's of years ago, ad nauseum, with a lot of opportunist adventurist vanguardist elitist weaseling for sectarian rhetorical hegemony, while the world burns.

            Conditions change, and so must theory and practice.

            All revolution has Ever been about is democracy.

            In case you haven't noticed, the right is presently screaming bloody murder, calling for political assassination, mass murder and civil war, and that rhetoric is getting more and more hysterical and draconian.

            Go figure.

            They see the writing on the wall more clearly than many on the purported left, it would seem.

            A popular democratic revolution is at hand, and it will mean the ultimate death of Capitalism as we now know it, and of it's moribund form, Fascism.

            Will that mean utopia already, in November?  I think not.

            But with substantial enough progressive, liberal and rational moderate Democratic plurality in the House and Senate, we'll be able to roll out the new green paradigm far more substantially, put everyone back to work, bring home the troops, have homes, pensions, health care, education, etc. etc, and, did I mention, actually prosecute criminal traitors to humanity.

            It will include fully funding and staffing the EPA and other regulatory agencies, which is our only hope for moving forward on environmental issues.

            It will also include relatively easy electoral, campaign finance and media reforms, to allow a more viable democracy to emerge.

            Which is a prospect that the right, and their Chamber of Commerce sponsors, hate and fear more than anything else in the whole world.

            If we are to have any prospect in hell, whatsoever, to ward off climate change, the Republicans must be crushed, First.

            THEN, we can proceed to weed out the "progressives", "liberals" and "moderates", without right wing interference, democratically, electorally, toward a material ability to actually surge forward into the 21st Century, for justice and peace, to save the planet.

            Again I say, I'm not necessarily against protests and demonstrations, or even a general strike, per se, heh...

            But line matters, as to whether it's really a revolutionary call, for more better democracy, or a serious counter-revolutionary error, in calling for electoral boycott and splitting, which will can only "lead" to even more destructive chaos.

            Photobucket

            Democracy is the most fundamental revolutionary principle.

            by Radical def on Fri Feb 17, 2012 at 12:11:52 PM PST

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            •  That last paragraph is where this conversation (0+ / 0-)

              is falling apart I believe.

              You seem to think I'm going to be out there pushiing for a third party or seomthing. Hell, no. With this government, I can't think of a bigger waste of time.

              So don't sweat that.

              I will working to get Dems and only Dems elected. Hopefully better Dems mostly.

              I just know that things you talk about them doing are going to take multiple terms and who knows what h.appens in the ensuing election cycles. Meanwhile, no matter what they do, no matter how good they are, they will not cap emissions by 2015 and they will not begin reducing emissions rapdily within a year or two after that. Nor will they be leading the rest of the world in rolling out a global plan. Our government bureaucy just can't get that much done on this timescale.

              No value judgment. That's just the way it is.

              There might be one exception: every seat in the house and senate filled by Bernie Sanders, but that just won't happen. And if it did, half of them would be dead in the first 100 days.

              You may worry about the result of solving global warming by popular fiat, and I do to. But frankly, we just have no alternative anymore. Time's out for a strictly State solution.

              This, too, shall pass. Just like the last global ecological cataclysm. C'est la vie, dude. Take a chill pill, recite the serenity prayer, go with the flow and the moderates into that "goodnight".

              by Words In Action on Fri Feb 17, 2012 at 02:21:57 PM PST

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        •  Put another way, being "not even close" w/Repubs (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          An Affirming Flame

          or "still not close" with Democrats when it comes to climate change is still ecological disaster.

          And there is nothing in the Democratic playbook that will launch us beyond "still not close."

          This, too, shall pass. Just like the last global ecological cataclysm. C'est la vie, dude. Take a chill pill, recite the serenity prayer, go with the flow and the moderates into that "goodnight".

          by Words In Action on Fri Feb 17, 2012 at 11:40:15 AM PST

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          •  It's not Democrats spending hundreds of millions (0+ / 0-)

            ...to propagandize against global warming, etc. etc. etc.

            LOL

            The only problem with the Democrats, such as they are, is the huge amount of very considerable pressure they are presently subject to, especially while subject to right wing majorities in the House and Senate (despite public opinion diametrically opposed to virtually every aspect of Republican program), to manipulate, coerce, co-opt, and yes, corrupt the Democrats...

            ALL of which impetus emanates from the right, the Republicans (and Blue Dogs) and their Chamber of Commerce sponsors.

            Purge and suppress the right, and those pressures CAN and WILL be very substantially mitigated, and even eliminated, such that the popular democratic will can prevail.

            It's as simple as that.

            Without recognizing and acknowledging that realpolitik, and getting on the bus to purge and suppress the right, you are ultimately just blowing it out your ass, with all your obstreperous righteous indignation and angst.

            Or worse, actually working for the enemy, whether you realize it, like it, or want it to be so, or not...

            Nobody "likes" to be called either a freakin' pig, or their dupe, but there it is, bubba.

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            Democracy is the most fundamental revolutionary principle.

            by Radical def on Fri Feb 17, 2012 at 12:33:31 PM PST

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            •  Who's working with enemy? You are paranoid (0+ / 0-)

              or delusional.

              As I have said several times, yes, I will help you pack D.C. with Dems.

              JUST DON'T EXPECT THEM TO RAMP UP IN TIME TO SOLVE GLOBAL WARMING.

              If you anything about it, we have to cap emissions within 3 or 4 years; then, another year or two after that, we have to begin rapidly reducing emissions all the way down to an 80% reduction by 2050.

              This government hasn't been able to change direction on this in over twenty years. There is no freakin' way any number of Democrats in this system will turn this boat in time.

              That's not a knock on Dems, per se. This system is fucked, at least for now.

              The only way we deal with is if we march and make it happen ourselves. Sitting back and hoping the Dems can wave a magic wand over DC is suicide.

              This, too, shall pass. Just like the last global ecological cataclysm. C'est la vie, dude. Take a chill pill, recite the serenity prayer, go with the flow and the moderates into that "goodnight".

              by Words In Action on Fri Feb 17, 2012 at 01:57:19 PM PST

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            •  You are not going to purge and supress the right (0+ / 0-)

              in D.C. in one election or two or three or four. I know, I've been at this for decades.

              Next yeay, no matter what, you will still be complaining about the fact that the right and the blue dogs are stopping us from solving globale warming, even when there are fewer of them. And I won't, because that's exactly what I expect. And you'll be screaming about how important it is we get more Dems in the NEXT cycle. and I'll say that won't really matter on this score because no matter what they aren't going to cap emissions in 2015 without a mutiny. And you'll keep cursing Republicans and apologizing for Dems all the way until the planet fries. Meanwhile, I will do everything possible minimize the Republican threat, maximize the Democratic opportunity and force them and their plutocratic bosses to get on board or get the hell outta the way. And that will go for you too.

              This, too, shall pass. Just like the last global ecological cataclysm. C'est la vie, dude. Take a chill pill, recite the serenity prayer, go with the flow and the moderates into that "goodnight".

              by Words In Action on Fri Feb 17, 2012 at 02:03:29 PM PST

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