Skip to main content

View Diary: "If you do the crime, pay the time" A Pro-life View of Abortion (293 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  #1 Never use the term "Pro-Life" (9+ / 0-)

    Use instead:  Pro-Choice or Anti-Choice.

    Ask a self-identified 'Pro-Lifer' if they support the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan.  If they do, then they're not 'Pro-Life.'  They're Anti-Life and Pro-Murder or Pro-Death in illegal and unconstitutional wars.

    "If you do the crime, pay the time."  That and similarly-worded sayings are old.  [In law enforcement, it's "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime."]

    When said in relation to sex, they mean "if you do the sex, face the consequences; if you turn up pregnant, you have to have the baby."  To these control-freak "pro-lifers," sex is a crime, not an activity to be engaged in for the sake of pleasure.

    According to the typical pro-lifer, pregnancy is not something to do on purpose when a woman is ready to become a mother.  Pregnancy and motherhood are punishments for having sex according to their twisted logic (consensuality or rape is not a factor to consider for them).

    There are a few legislators who are my age (66) and older who were raised with that attitude: sex = crime; pregnancy/motherhood = punishment.  They'll freely tell you that when a couple is legally married, then sex somehow magically becomes a pleasurable activity.  Parenthood is just one of those things that happens.  Planned pregnancies are an alien concept.

    However, the sex = punishment meme is so deeply entrenched in the minds of these sickos that they must first be jolted out of their set-in-cement mindset by first using language in such a way that they can't fall back on their erroneous terms without falling into their own trap....,

    Ergo, NEVER use their language because that let's them set the argument and wins the argument for them when they force you to use their terms..., so the FIRST term that has to go is "Pro-Life."  They are 'Anti-Choice.'

    Ask them about their stance on war; if they believe in killing people, they are NOT "Pro-Life."  They're "Pro-Death" or "Pro-Murder" in illegal and unconstitutional wars (like the ones in Iraq and Afghanistan).  Make them first lie to themselves if they are then going to lie to themselves about their attitude regarding abortion since they are so clearly Pro-Death/Pro-Murder when it comes to killing in war; it sets up a state of cognitive dissonance.  When they have to start thinking in different terms (your more correct terms), it makes them start to think..., at least until they listen to Faux Snooze or Rushie McLimpDick or whomever else fills their pea-brains with nonsense and more lies.

    Use, instead, only Anti-Choice or Pro-Choice.

    I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

    by NonnyO on Thu Feb 23, 2012 at 11:24:58 PM PST

    •  Completely Agree! I was introduced to the term (8+ / 0-)

      "Forced Birthers" when I wrote this. I will definitely use this in the future.
      Now that I think about it...the "pro-life" definition that was presented to my class was a trap and a falsehood. I think that is why I was so vehement to make it plain that the definitions were lies. They are making it out to be that WE are the ones who like the killing which is why they frame the argument that we are pro-abortion!

      Your comment definitely gives me great ammo for the next debate. Thank You!

      Let my name stand among those who are willing to bear ridicule and reproach for the truth's sake, and so earn some right to rejoice when the victory is won.-Louisa May Alcott

      by YoungArizonaLiberal on Thu Feb 23, 2012 at 11:31:45 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Set up this problem, too: (13+ / 0-)

        Mother of five, pregnant with a sixth baby.  She develops pre-eclampsia when she's six months pregnant and the doctor tells her the fetus is dead (pre-eclampsia normally kills the fetus; an older term is 'toxemia of pregnancy').  Her body does not take over and naturally abort the dead fetus, and meanwhile the decomposition of the dead fetus starts to poison the mother's body..., but still the mother's body doesn't naturally abort the dead fetus.  No, there is no error; the fetus is definitely dead (this is at the end of the second trimester or beginning of the third trimester).  If the dead fetus doesn't come out soon, it will kill the mother of five living children.

        Now what?

        If the fetus is already dead, does removing it to save the life of the mother constitute an "abortion?"  Remember, this woman already has five living children, ages 15 down to age two, and a husband, plus her husband's very elderly parents are living with them.  She is definitely needed to take care of her family.

        Discuss.

        Let's complicate this further.  It's 1938 and under old abortion laws a doctor could go to prison for performing an abortion.

        Still, is it technically an 'abortion' if the fetus is already dead, time's passing while her body is not expelling the dead fetus, and the mother could die if it's not removed...?

        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        Bzzzzzzzt!  Time's up!  Here's what happened:

        Three months after the fetus died in March, mother never miscarried the dead fetus, went into labor at term on 25 May, there was dilation until late morning the 26th, manual dilation of uterus was done to remove the dead fetus when the placenta detached, followed by heavy bleeding and collapse of the uterus (the newspaper obit said emergency surgery was done; not sure what that means).  She died late in the evening of May 26.  The official cause of death:  "Toxic myocardial failure due to absorption toxemia, blood loss, parturition effort and trauma."  The latter had been of three months duration.  The doctor even did a death certificate for the fetus, a boy; cause of death was listed as 'toxemia of pregnancy of mother' and the age was noted 'born at term but of six months gestation.'

        Can you imagine the screams from the fundie crowd over "late-term abortion" if they knew about a woman who had a dead fetus of six months gestation inside her that needed to come out?

        The woman who died was my maternal grandmother.  She was 35 years old.  My mother was the eldest daughter and was 13 when her mother died.  I do genealogy research and I have a copy of both death certificates in my files.

        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        Think this scenario couldn't happen today?

        Let the reichwingnut fundies and ignorant Congress Critters (state and federal level) who take PAC money from the fundies have their way, they'll go back to the old abortion laws and you can bet your sweet bippy it will happen again.

        In very olden days when midwives passed on their lore orally, they knew the plants that would induce miscarriages, and the names of those plants are still known.  I suspect if my maternal grandmother had known one of those very old midwives she might have been given an abortifacient of some kind and lived to raise the five children who were left motherless.

        Male doctors did away with midwives and made it difficult for them to deliver babies.  My paternal grandmother and her paternal grandmother before her were both midwives.  I don't think they knew as much as the midwives of very olden days who had a better grasp of herbs and what they did (in some cases), but my dad's mother had the largest funeral ever held in the church I attended as a young person.  She delivered a great many of the people who attended, or had helped the mothers when they were giving birth.

        I would rather there be NO laws about abortion on the books; there were none until the late 19th century in the US.  It's a medical decision.  Let women and midwives and normal female gynecologists take care of the whole process of birth control, pregnancy, and delivery of babies, and keep male laws and male legislators out of the whole process.  Period.  That way the only person who can make medical decisions about sex, birth control, abortion (if any), pregnancy (if any), or birth (if any) is a woman... after being fully informed of her options.

        I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

        by NonnyO on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 12:50:03 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Oh, and you're welcome! :-) n/t (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        YoungArizonaLiberal, Matt Z

        I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

        by NonnyO on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 12:50:55 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  I am fond of Forced Birthers now. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      NonnyO

      Anti-choice and Anti-abortion also work because they are descriptive and accurate.  Prolife, not so much, as they don't care much about the child after it is born, often are supporters of the death penalty, and cheer when their candidates imply that folks who can't pay for medical help should be allowed to die.  

      •  The term "Pro-Life" is THEIR term... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        YoungArizonaLiberal

        ..., and as long as they and Moronic Media use the term Pro-Life (instead of the correct and descriptive Anti-Choice and Anti-Abortion), then they control the dialogue, and it revolves around whether or not the opposing side (Democrats) is always in the wrong, no matter what they say, even if what Dems say is correct.  The "Pro-Life" term is a lose-lose descriptor since the Repukes only care about the unborn, not life outside the womb.

        The self-described Pro-Lifers almost all support the unconstitutional and illegal offensive wars and occupations started by Dumbya & Dickie, in addition to being for the death penalty.

        Lose the term "Pro-Life" and never use it.

        I like the term "Forced Birthers," but not enough to use it yet.

        I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

        by NonnyO on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 09:38:00 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site