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View Diary: "If you do the crime, pay the time" A Pro-life View of Abortion (293 comments)

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  •  Bullshit- you smell like troll for sure. (5+ / 0-)
    The abortion debate boils down to something very simple: whether or not you believe that a fetus becomes embodied with a soul at the moment of conception.
    you provide confirmation to the other side that we are EVIL. And evil must be resisted with everything they have
    Boilerplate trollspeak

    No, it's not. For the many of us who are 100% certain there is no magical "soul" at any point in life, this is totally irrelevant. It's about women being able to have control of their bodies. Just dropping some semen into a women doesn't give you ownership over her body.

    And talk about straw"women" in your arguement. I've seen very few women get in anyones face about being proud to have had an abortion. Usually an abortion is the end result of a chain of events that usually no one is happy about.

    WTF!?!?!?! When did I move to the Republic of Gilead?!

    by IARXPHD on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 07:20:26 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  This is not the first time I've had this debte on (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      darlalalala

      DK. I can find the comments if you like.

      And what the hell are you talking about? Troll? All I was pointing out was the thought process of our opponents. I know it's irrelevant for you.

      This debate can never be solved. We need to figure out how to live with each other.

      It's not 11th dimensional chess; it's just chess. And he's KICKING YOUR ASS.

      by pneuma on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 07:58:22 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's not how it reads. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Chris Jay

        It appears that the statements in your posting that I block quoted are your beliefs. Is that not true?

        If you were intending to point out those as the forced birth sides points, it wasn't clear at all.

        WTF!?!?!?! When did I move to the Republic of Gilead?!

        by IARXPHD on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 08:07:59 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Your reading comprehension is lacking (0+ / 0-)
          I'm pro-choice
          Here is the comment I was referring to.

          Imagine you believe abortion is murder. This woman is saying "I killed a baby, haha, love to make people uncomfortable".

          To them, we're monsters. Don't give them any further reason to de-humanize us.

          It's not 11th dimensional chess; it's just chess. And he's KICKING YOUR ASS.

          by pneuma on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 08:23:46 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Continued... (0+ / 0-)
            The abortion debate boils down to something very simple: whether or not you believe that a fetus becomes embodied with a soul at the moment of conception. Medically and scientifically, no one is in disagreement that a small clump of cells can be mistaken for a human being. If you believe that, you believe abortion is murder, and murder is bad.
            Is this your belief or not? If not, then I apoligize, if not my comments (outside of trollness) apply. I'm sorry for accusing you of that.

            I'm only alive today because my mom had a tubal pregnancy aborted in 1959.

            WTF!?!?!?! When did I move to the Republic of Gilead?!

            by IARXPHD on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 08:55:31 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Do I believe (0+ / 0-)

              That the abortion debate boils down to whether or not you believe that a fetus becomes embodied with a soul at the moment of conception? Absolutely.

              Do I believe that a fetus becomes embodied with a soul at the moment of conception? Not at all.

              My sister aborted her first child due to birth defect. I am very strongly pro-choice. I just don't demonize the other side. In fact, I have a great deal of respect for them. If I believed that abortion was murder, and that babies were being killed, I don't think I could stop at activism. The fact that more violence isn't being perpetuated by them speaks to their restraint.

              It's not 11th dimensional chess; it's just chess. And he's KICKING YOUR ASS.

              by pneuma on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 09:27:32 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  OK. I get hung up on the soul thing. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                YoungArizonaLiberal

                I don't believe in such a thing, nor do I believe in anything supernatural.

                So I find that discussion irrelevant.

                WTF!?!?!?! When did I move to the Republic of Gilead?!

                by IARXPHD on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 09:35:31 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I believe as you do (0+ / 0-)

                  Most of the country doesn't. I try to get in their heads.

                  It's not 11th dimensional chess; it's just chess. And he's KICKING YOUR ASS.

                  by pneuma on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 09:40:38 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Personal beliefs are PERSONAL (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Clues, YoungArizonaLiberal

                  The real question is, should the restricting/forbidding side of the argument be allowed to force its position on everyone else whether they agree or not?

                  You (generic you) can believe whatever you want, as long as you can resist forcing your beliefs on me. Do that, and I'll fight back - and I fight dirty.

                  If it's
                  Not your body,
                  Then it's
                  Not your choice
                  And it's
                  None of your damn business!

                  by TheOtherMaven on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 09:46:41 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Not really (0+ / 0-)

                    If you don't believe murder is wrong, that's great and all, but society is not going to sit back and let you exercise your beliefs. In that case, we'll impose our beliefs on you. Our opponents think in those terms.

                    It's not 11th dimensional chess; it's just chess. And he's KICKING YOUR ASS.

                    by pneuma on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 09:54:03 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  "Our opponents" are woman-hating PSYCHOS! (3+ / 0-)

                      Because here's their dirty little secret: they don't believe SLAVERY is wrong, and they are out to ENSLAVE every woman.

                      They may not admit it, even to themselves, but that's what they want and that's what they are working toward.

                      If it's
                      Not your body,
                      Then it's
                      Not your choice
                      And it's
                      None of your damn business!

                      by TheOtherMaven on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 10:35:30 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Pneuma, I can't decide whether you are sincere, (0+ / 0-)

                      sincerely a troll, sincerely influenced by your penis, or sincerely influenced by some political or philosophical position I just don't buy. But when you say things such as:

                      It's not about hating women, or wanting control over women's bodies.       OR

                      Some women are very in-your-face about abortion. They're proud of having one. When our side behaves this way - when they say things like men have no right to an opinion on murder - you provide confirmation to the other side that we are EVIL.     OR

                      If I believed that abortion was murder, and that babies were being killed, I don't think I could stop at activism. The fact that more violence isn't being perpetuated by them speaks to their restraint.

                      Those make me suspicious, even if you say you're just trying to explain the other side to us. First of all, not to think that control enters into this is just naive, no matter what other beliefs may accompany anti-choice positions. Second, women being "in your face" is about as old a dog whistle as they come.  Third, you think anti-choicers are restrained in their violence, and that if you thought as they did you'd go as far, or further??! How many deaths a/o bombings will it take for you to consider "their" actions as unrestrained?  And last of all, Jesus Christ, we really really don't need "the other side" explained to us. We've been hearing it and dealing with it since before Roe, even since before we had our first periods.  I find you perplexing, to say the least.

                      •  I like perplexing (0+ / 0-)

                        People are complicated. Issues are complicated. They should be hard to figure out.

                        This diary is about framing. The discussion is about how people think about things. Communication is impossible unless at least one party understands both party's points of view. I try very hard to get into the head of my opponents. Sometimes that makes me sound sympathetic. Hell, some times it makes me sympathetic.

                        If I sound like a pro-lifer, it is because this is an issue I've given a lot of thought too. Sanctity of life versus quality of life was the debate topic my senior year of high school, and I've spent the last 20 years going over both dies of the argument.

                        I apologize if I was condescending, or misleading. I doubt the discussion of this diary would be very entertaining of all the comments were "yeah, what she said". If we all agree, that's boring. :)

                        It's not 11th dimensional chess; it's just chess. And he's KICKING YOUR ASS.

                        by pneuma on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 07:32:07 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  It's not as complicated as you want to make it (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          YoungArizonaLiberal, kait

                          It's really quite a clear-cut issue: do women have the right to control their own bodies and their own reproduction?

                          If the answer is "yes", then anything else is just nitpicking over details.

                          If it's
                          Not your body,
                          Then it's
                          Not your choice
                          And it's
                          None of your damn business!

                          by TheOtherMaven on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 09:12:10 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  Freaky Friday diaries are entertaining. Even (0+ / 0-)

                          Lightbulb's informative diaries can be entertaining, although they're about serious subject matter. But this topic and this diary I don't think are supposed to be "entertaining." BTW, it  IS condescending to suggest that because I pointed out that this debate should be settled as an issue before medical school (which is where I referenced my own high school days), I haven't thought about this ever again. Clearly I have, and continue to do so, or I wouldn't be commenting here, now would I?

                          Frankly, I wish this was not an issue which has faced me either personally a/o professionally every day for around 35 years. But the recent actions of OK and VA, as well as the 3 stooges of the GOP primary serve to remind me again that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

              •  The government has no business (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                YoungArizonaLiberal, kait

                deciding anything to do with souls.  They can weigh in on persons, but whether a fertilized egg has a soul is not a topic that should be a matter of politics and legislation.

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