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View Diary: Final PPP Michigan poll: Tossup, but Rick Santorum has momentum—with boost from Democrats (216 comments)

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  •  Romney's already won; that IS hilarious. Not. (18+ / 0-)

    If he loses, he can easily point to "Democratic meddling" as the reason, which will only bring more Republicans to his cause by trumpeting the fact the Democrats are afraid to face him so badly they are willing to vote for Santorum. And if he wins, he triumphed over Santorum and the Democrats; if he loses, he gets to lump Santorum in with Democratic operatives.

    So the intent to help Santorum prolong the campaign has pretty much already backfired.

    This is one of the dumbest political tactics I've seen waved around in quite some time.

    And you NEVER encourage your base to vote for somebody in the other party. You never know who won't come back in the fall.

    Amateur hour.

    Some people are intolerant, and I CAN'T STAND people like that. -- Tom Lehrer

    by TheCrank on Mon Feb 27, 2012 at 08:23:58 PM PST

    •  If Romney loses Michigan, it's such a big headline (22+ / 0-)

      that it won't matter that Democrats representing a tiny percentage of the electorate voted for Santorum.

      This is Romney's home state.  The state where his father was a beloved governor.  As much as he might try, he won't be able to simply explain away a loss there by merely pointing to Operation Hilarity.

    •  Dems who "won't come back in the fall" ? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      itskevin, Jeff Y, ljb

      "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

      by indycam on Mon Feb 27, 2012 at 08:30:12 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  If you don't know that phenomenon... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        eglantine, valerie wonder

        ...you haven't worked enough campaigns retail. Not to paraphrase Senator Santorum, but not ever voter is some whipsmart college-educated snarker. You have plenty of voters who are loyal Democrats and will take advice on how to vote because they're party loyalists who aren't political junkies.

        You tell somebody, 'hey, vote for Smith in the primary', they'll dutifully vote for Smith, and they see Smith on the ballot again in the fall, they'll remember Smith and pull her or his name.

        I've probably knocked on 10,000 doors in my lifetime and even in the most public contests, I've had to remind the voters of the candidates at least half the time.

        So, yes, there's a danger if you tell a voter to vote for a Republican now, they'll vote Republican in the fall.

        Some people are intolerant, and I CAN'T STAND people like that. -- Tom Lehrer

        by TheCrank on Mon Feb 27, 2012 at 08:36:24 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Got any data other than what you believe ? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          GOPGO2H3LL, vcmvo2

          How dems got dems to turn republican ?
          I think you may think it could happen , and that's fine , but I doubt that is a real possibility .

          A dem who goes into the voting booth and sees Obama on the ballot and votes for "smith" has got to be a very very rare bird indeed . So rare that I would say its not even something that could ever change the outcome of an election in any way shape or form .

          "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

          by indycam on Mon Feb 27, 2012 at 08:47:24 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Why no, Indycam, other than... (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            valerie wonder, Sun dog, justmy2

            ...having talked to maybe 20,000 voters over a 40-year period. I'm not an expert like you, clearly.

            Some people are intolerant, and I CAN'T STAND people like that. -- Tom Lehrer

            by TheCrank on Mon Feb 27, 2012 at 08:51:06 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  So you talked to people about voting (R) (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              DemSign

              and forgetting who Obama is ? 20,000 times ?

              "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

              by indycam on Mon Feb 27, 2012 at 08:53:40 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  And your data about Operation Hilarity is... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                valerie wonder, justmy2

                I'm guessing purely theoretical.

                What exactly is your point? It's a sophistic argument to suggest I was trying to say every voter is going to "forget Obama". Some do and will.  Although I'm sure if you polled 20,000 Democratic bloggers, every last one of them would get it right.

                Perhaps you remember Palm Beach County in 2000? Why do you think the GOP uses robocalls to tell people to make sure to remember to vote on Wednesday? Have you ever driven elderly voters who can barely see and hold a pen to the polling place? Translated a political pamphlet on the fly to a person who has trouble with English?

                Right, I didn't think so.

                Some people are intolerant, and I CAN'T STAND people like that. -- Tom Lehrer

                by TheCrank on Mon Feb 27, 2012 at 09:21:08 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Indycam has a reductive logic issue (0+ / 0-)

                  Based on his/her unsubstantiated claims.

                •  I'm not making claims , you are . (0+ / 0-)
                  It's a sophistic argument to suggest I was trying to say every voter is going to "forget Obama".
                  I suggested no such thing . The "sophistic argument" you refer to is not mine .
                  Perhaps you remember Palm Beach County in 2000?
                  Sure do .
                  Why do you think the GOP uses robocalls to tell people to make sure to remember to vote on Wednesday?
                  I do indeed know why .
                  Have you ever driven elderly voters who can barely see and hold a pen to the polling place?
                  Yes I have . And I help them all at every chance . My co workers think I do to much and ask me if I am not tired . I help the people who have a hard time walking , I help the blind , I help the ones who need any and all help .
                  The only ones who piss me off are my coworkers who can't set up / run their own machines . They went to class and learned how but on the day when it matters , when time is short and I have my own machines to set up and check out , they come and ask me to show them how . They can see that I am getting mine set up so they want me to stop what I am doing and do their work for them .
                  Translated a political pamphlet on the fly to a person who has trouble with English?
                  Every election where I have worked the election .
                  Right, I didn't think so.
                  You sure do think things up .

                  One question I have never gotten from a voter is
                  Who is the democrat president ?

                  "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

                  by indycam on Mon Feb 27, 2012 at 09:40:02 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

        •  not worried about satorum's accidental election as (4+ / 0-)

          president. any democrat who can't be trusted to tell the difference between obama and santorum in november probably can't read well enough to distinguish their names on a ballot.

      •  The political inexperience of folks on this site (6+ / 0-)

        ...sometimes truly astounds me. I don't present myself as an expert here but I first started stuffing envelopes for Shirley Chisholm and I've participated in campaigns in half a dozen states at pretty much every office level you can imagine in the nearly 40 years since then. There's a profound lack of respect for voters, and a real misunderstanding of what makes most people who are not educated political junkies tick, inherent in a lot of the discourse here.

        Yes, I am all about winning elections. I am not fond of losing them, principle or no principle. I admit I have my limits, such as dirty tricks and lying and so forth, naively thinking my party is better than the GOP.

        And my objections to Operation Hilarity, I admit, are foremost because it disrespects the sacredness of the vote, something that is apparently lost on a generation that doesn't seem to remember people bled and died for the right to cast their vote.

        That said it's just stupid politics, ignorant about the motivations of the vast majority of voters and the kinds of work that go into building majorities and winning elections.

        You want to win? Get off your highchairs and go knock on some doors.

        Some people are intolerant, and I CAN'T STAND people like that. -- Tom Lehrer

        by TheCrank on Mon Feb 27, 2012 at 08:45:29 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well, Op Hil aside, the main point… (0+ / 0-)

          …is to depress the Romney vote, not create Santorum voters. The advanced corollary to your theorem is that Republicans who stay at home during the primary because they don't like their choices are also likely to stay at home during the generals because they don't like their choices.

          Teh stoopidTM, it hurts. Buy smart, union-printed, USA-made, signs, stickers, swag for everyone: DemSign.com. Get your We are the 99% Yard Sign.

          by DemSign on Mon Feb 27, 2012 at 09:21:18 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  dem groups ran MI anti-Romney ads for reason (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          john from vermont

          there's nothing wrong with Dem groups convincing a few indies that it's not worth voting for romney in an R primary. same goes for dems crossing over. it's politically smart and there's nothing ethically or legally wrong with an eligible voter casting a ballot.

          •  Those Dem Groups also lost to Rick Snyder (0+ / 0-)

            and turned their state over to Republicans...

            that doesn't exactly instill confidence in their tactics....

            and the idea that the only reason for Obama to runs ads is due to OH is silly...look at what happened in Iowa and FL when massive dollars entered the state without  an answer...

            obviously those are not exact analogies, but they still show that there are more reasons than simply wreaking havoc to advertise in an unopposed primary...

            "But once John Boehner is sworn in as Speaker, then he’s going to have responsibilities to govern. You can’t just stand on the sidelines and be a bomb thrower." - President Obama, 12-07-2010

            by justmy2 on Mon Feb 27, 2012 at 11:10:24 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Oh god, I don't even know where to start on this (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              PorridgeGun

              Dems were always going to lose to Snyder. We didn't vote for him in the primary to try to help Bernero in November. We did it because the other four candidates were much worse, and because Bernero didn't have a prayer in hell of winning. Snyder's not Tea Party; he has his own money; the other 4 were in bed with the TP.

              I could do a separate rant about Bernero, but you'd have to live in this state and see what a weasel he is to understand why he was never going to win. Those of us who voted in the primary were engaged in damage control - much different than the situation today.

        •  Shirley Chisholm eh? (0+ / 0-)

          Well then it's ALL YOUR FAULT that we no longer have Edna Kelly (D-NY) in Congress anymore.  How dare you!  You're part of the PROBLEM, not the solution!  J/k of course. :)  

          Honestly, if people want to meddle in the GOP Primary, that's not something I'm going to get involved with.  I'm not going to attack people for it.  I'm not going to encourage this sort of behavior though.  Primaries are open to non-party members because they largely encourage people to come over and vote for candidates who aren't in their party.  

          Also, we never know if we're going to turn out to be wrong and select a GOP candidate who's actually stronger.  Believe it or not, I am starting to think that Mitt Romney is actually the weaker of the two candidates and the most unelectable in a general election.  Actually, I've been feeling this way for quite a while.  

          Check out my new blog: http://socalliberal.wordpress.com/

          by SoCalLiberal on Mon Feb 27, 2012 at 11:03:50 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Watch out who you vote for... (4+ / 0-)

      ... it just might come true.

      Evolution IS Intelligent Design!

      by msirt on Mon Feb 27, 2012 at 08:30:22 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Not at all (9+ / 0-)

      Santorum will win Washington State this weekend solely with the support of social conservatives. WA voted for Huckabee last time, and Rick is well ahead in the polls there - among Republicans. And that win will put an abrupt end to any whining from Romney about Democratic meddling.

      Your ploy might work if Santorum's support among true conservatives was soft or in question. It's not. Actually, conservatives will probably respect him more for using Democratic support against Romney, who they don't trust.

    •  This wont work (17+ / 0-)

      I'm not a fan of Operation Hilarity, but

      If he loses, he can easily point to "Democratic meddling" as the reason

      No, he really cant. It will look like whining. This is his home state. Democratic involvement or not, he should win.

      The fact that it is close enough that Dems might have an impact says a lot about Romney's campaign, none of it good.

      •  He'll take every vote he can get! (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        john sfl, LordMike, IM, PorridgeGun

        Did the Clinton folks say after TX, OH and IN, "Oh well, we only won because of Republicans"?

        •  I don't think Republicans (0+ / 0-)

          helped Hillary win any of those primaries.  In fact, she was ultimately the stronger candidate than Barack Obama and Republicans have always loathed her.  The only Republicans I knew who wanted to vote for Hillary were those legitimately crossing over for her (they were planning to vote for her in the general too).  

          Check out my new blog: http://socalliberal.wordpress.com/

          by SoCalLiberal on Mon Feb 27, 2012 at 11:05:08 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  How you missed (0+ / 0-)

            all those bragging dittoheads I can't imagine -- there were quite a few in those states who did so, including Indiana which she carried by a razor thin margin.

            •  I suppose it's possible in Indiana (0+ / 0-)

              that there were Republicans who voted for her and gave her the margin of victory.  But that assumes that no Republicans did so for Obama.  And that these voters who crossed over weren't serious about both candidates as President.  In my experience, the Republicans who were voting in the Democratic Primary were converted to either Barack or Hillary.  I think many of them are still there.  

              Check out my new blog: http://socalliberal.wordpress.com/

              by SoCalLiberal on Tue Feb 28, 2012 at 11:38:41 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  As analysis of an outcome, you're right on this: (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ShadowRunning, cardinal
        The fact that it is close enough that Dems might have an impact says a lot about Romney's campaign, none of it good.
        ...but this isn't about the post-mortem, it's the messaging that's done with the GOP base moving forward (if the intent of this prank is to prolong the GOP race by making Santorum look good and Romney look bad).

        Saying that he'll look like he's whining is a Democratic perspective. The GOP, particularly its base, is all about perceived victimhood, and the idea of Democrats intervening will get plenty of play (tune in to Fox on Wednesday and prove me wrong) whether or not there was a single vote cast for Santorum by a D.

        That's why I'm saying Romney's already won. The deck is stacked for him and has been from the get-go. We all know he keeps screwing up. Giving him an excuse for a Michigan loss just helps him recover from it that much more quickly.

        Some people are intolerant, and I CAN'T STAND people like that. -- Tom Lehrer

        by TheCrank on Mon Feb 27, 2012 at 08:59:22 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well, actually I dont think "whining" (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kat68

          really is the Democratic perspective.

          You already have a base that doesnt like Romney, and an establishment that isnt thrilled about the campaign he has run. I dont think they are really going to rally around him because he says that Democrats may have voted for Santorum just to keep the primary going. The distaste for that type of whining from a campaign isnt really well liked, no matter the party.

          And again, I say this as someone who doesnt like Operation Hilarity at all.

    •  If he ends up blaming dems for his loss in MI (14+ / 0-)

      he looks like a pathetic whiner who can't win in the state where he was born! No one is going to be impressed by that--he should have such an easy time in MI that a small number of dems crossing over to vote for his opponent should be of no matter to him.

      •  Especially if Romney claims he is more .... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LordMike

        .... electable in the fall. Santorum can claim everyone is a Reagan democrat.

        No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible.

        by Magster on Mon Feb 27, 2012 at 08:43:40 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Then you don't know the Republican base (0+ / 0-)

        They'll buy it.

        Some people are intolerant, and I CAN'T STAND people like that. -- Tom Lehrer

        by TheCrank on Mon Feb 27, 2012 at 08:46:40 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Au contraire. I was just reading over at Hot Air (0+ / 0-)

          and the "true conservative" Santorum/Gingrich/Palin-lovers are just delighted the Dems might help put their boy over the top.  Middle-of-the-roaders are mostly amused, admitting they "have it coming" after Rush's shenanigans in our primary.

          The only ones whining and complaining are the Mittbots and they are NOT well liked on most winger blogs I monitor. I realy don't see the base of the base buying into this type of pathetic excuse-making by Romney in his "home" freaking state!

    •  For the small percentage in an open primary? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Davidsfr, duha, distraught

      That makes no sense. He will lose because he couldn't get enough people to like him period.

    •  Actually...Santorum can spin his win as his (4+ / 0-)

      popularity with Democratic and Independent Voters.

      Romney whining will get drowned out from the collective brain explosion that Establishment GOPers will have tomorrow night.

      Let my name stand among those who are willing to bear ridicule and reproach for the truth's sake, and so earn some right to rejoice when the victory is won.-Louisa May Alcott

      by YoungArizonaLiberal on Mon Feb 27, 2012 at 08:40:50 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Ridiculous. (8+ / 0-)

      Nobody who takes voting advice from Markos is going to vote for Santorum in the fall.  That's just ludicrous.  

    •  Tsongas (8+ / 0-)

      I would love to hear Romney complain about "Democratic meddling."  Then somebody can ask him about how he "meddled" in the 1992 Democratic primary.  

    •  And they're so damn smug and proud (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ehrenfeucht games

      Now that the clueless media has associated this nitwit plan with Daily Kos.

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