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View Diary: Breaking: Davy Jones, 1945-2012 (293 comments)

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  •  If they got mass produced... (0+ / 0-)

    ...they were commodified.

    Yes, I know the history of the time period.  Don't assume the younger generations are ignorant or naive.  The cultural hegemony we've been subjected to ensures we know the history quite well, thank you very much.

    The major record labels were making bank off the Beatles, off of Motown, off of Joni Mitchell.  Artists may have had their independent labels--hell, even Madonna had her independent "Maverick Records" label for more than a decade, which was responsible for bringing Alanis Morisette to the world--they were usually still part of a larger corporation (in Madge's case, Warner Brothers).  Some have truly broken away to become their own entities (like Deathrow Records), but most were not and are not.

    Again, live concerts were part of the promotion of the records, but they weren't the money-makers they are today.  They were used to promote record sales--today, the situation is actually reversed, where the record is designed to gin up concert sales (at least for major artists).

    Yeah, there's a generational gap here.  Mostly, it's that the Xers and younger have almost no illusions about how our media works.  Every time I teach a new Cultural Studies class, that skepticism comes through stronger and stronger.  The fact is that commodifying dissent is nothing new in the world, and it was going on in 1965 just as much as it's going on in 2012.  It's just Gen X and younger are kind of inoculated from it because it's become so pervasive, but it was always there.  All you have to do is spend a weekend with a "Behind the Music" marathon on VH-1, and you'll see what I mean.

    •  i am worried by what you say. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Clem Yeobright

      how can one "teach" a subject from outside their own experience if they are not willing to listen to the "living history" of those who were on the ground at that time.

      i learned a great deal by sitting for hours listening to my grandfather describe his life as a young boy in north carolina.  it was a world that is totally non-existant today... and it is through his experiences that i gained insight into the reality that was HIS life experience.

      you and i seem to be "fighting" over who is more correct in our observations of a time i actually lived through and you have read and studied about.

      it is our different perceptions that should be openly discussed - without anger or argument over who is "right" or who is "wrong".  each of us have our own life experiences and they are valid.  i can not tell you what it was like to be a young person growing up in your generation because i wasn't involved in that experience.  i can study it, learn about it, ask about it - but i did not live it - so your recounting of those experiences gives me greater insight into YOUR generation.  my assessment, however, doesn't change what you experienced nor does it invalidate your life experiences.

      please consider that what i lived and what shaped my life also is something you can never have experienced.  you can read, study, ask about it - but you can not experience it because you were not there.

      that is not infantilizing you - it is pointing out that we come from different times.  each of us lived our own times and has a better perspective on those times than the other could ever hope to have.  that is reality.

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      by edrie on Thu Mar 01, 2012 at 02:06:55 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Again with the backhand. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Charles Hall

        I teach my subject just fine.  I've heard the "living history" over and over and over.  I keep saying that to you, and you keep not hearing it.

        Let me make this painfully clear.  Generation X has had nothing but the Baby Boomers' "living history" all our lives.  The "cultural hegemony" I keep talking about is the Boomers' insistence that everyone else listen to yet-another rendition of their "living history", as if we haven't heard it before.  If it's not our parents reliving their glory days, it's film and television glorifying it over and over and over.  Boomers are obsessed--completely obsessed--with making sure the younger generations hear "their history".  It's almost all they ever talk about--how the Baby Boomers single-handedly and heroically ended racism, how they ended sexism, how they ended the Vietnam War, how great the Beatles were, etc.

        And yet, I and the rest of my generation hear the hypocrisy.  The Baby Boomers are still deeply racist.  Every time I hear Chris Matthews gush about Barack Obama, I hear the hint of "the black kid done good, and it proves I'm not a racist because I elected a black man", and Matthews is certainly not unique among liberals of his generation.  It's patronizingly racistt.  And for the record, when the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965 were passed, no Baby Boomer was old enough to serve in Congress.  That was the WWII generation's doing.  Boomers are still horribly, horribly homophobic.  Marriage equality is primarily blocked by people 50+; the younger generations support marriage equality overwhelmingly.  Boomers are the "Greed is Good" generation--not just "some" of them, but most of them.  If it wasn't the Gordon Gekkos on Wall Street, it was "Reagan Democrats" and the home-flippers in the 'burbs who, together, wrecked our economy.  Boomers experienced the sharpest levels of divorce our society has seen--yet another manifestation of the sheer self-centeredness I'm talking about here--leaving many in my generation to grow up in broken homes.

        The Boomers ought to be renamed the Ozymandias generation:

        "Look on my Works ye Mighty, and despair!"

        And then, before I even graduated high school, a Baby Boomer published a book about my generation, "Generation X", that labeled us a bunch of shiftless slackers who'd never amount to anything.

        Forgive me if I have little nice to say about the Baby Boomers.  I'm just a slacker who won't amount to anything.

        •  wow. (0+ / 0-)

          we are not "one" - we are many - and many different views.  we never claimed to end racism - we DID end racist laws and gave those who are discriminated the tools to fight.

          i am not your parents.  my experiences are my own.  i am not interested in being lumped into your "boomers" definition.  i am sorry you are angry that we didn't fix everything, which we didn't.

          that is now up to you and future generations to finish what we started.  we, as a generation, fought the same battles you fight still - and we made headway in changing the dynamic.  

          you bring up marriage equality.  when i was a teen, homosexual men still committed suicide to prevent people from finding out or from being exposed.  you seem to resent that we were unable to give you everything (marriage equality).  what we gave you was the right to be who you are without being ostracized from society, fired from work (although that still happens, there are laws now to protect those discriminated against) and, slowly, opened the door so that you could finish pushing it open.

          for your generation (if i may be allowed to temporarily allowed to generalize to make a point), i repeatedly hear the comment about not voting for democrats or only voting 3rd party or all parties are the same.

          had my generation shared those beliefs, none of the current laws would be in place

          so, please, don't assume that all of us born after wwII are like the author you reference.  that was one person and one person's belief.  


          divorce.  another criticism?  do you have ANY idea what it was like for women to be trapped in horrendous marriages without the ability to walk away?  do you know how many women were married by gay men who were terrified that someone would find out and lied to the women to cover up?

          it is the boomer generation that changed attitudes by making being gay a part of the rainbow world we lived in.  we started the dialogue that subsequent generations need to now complete.

          furthermore, you think divorce is a bad thing - i don't agree.  why would any two people stay together and be miserable?  

          reagan? you blame MY generation for that?  sorry.  MY generation pushed eugene mcgovern - and lost horrifically - because we were so far to the left of mainstream america.  reagan happened a full 20 years after my "youth" - and between my parents and the next 2 decades of voters, that one cannot be laid on the backs of the boomers alone.

          perhaps one of the things about my generation you've missed is the focus we had on tolerance.  stating that my generation had racist, homophobic views is a blanket generalization that shows you really don't know much about us.

          that is sad.

          i am so floored by your comment that i think i need to step away from the computer.  now.

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          by edrie on Thu Mar 01, 2012 at 08:52:55 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Homophobia. (0+ / 0-)


            The Boomers didn't do squat for LGBT rights.  What was done was done by LGBT people themselves, and it had absolutely nothing--NOTHING--to do with non-LGBT folks of that generation.

            In fact, Betty Friedan led feminists in 1969 in an anti-lesbian crusade that poisoned feminism against lesbians for an entire generation, writing that lesbians were a "Lavender Menace" threatening the entire movement, shoving lesbians back into their closets in service of the "greater good".  She called lesbians a "clear and present danger" to the movement, and distanced NOW from the Daughters of Bilitis (at the time, the only lesbian organization in the U.S.).

            Harry Hay made repeated overtures to link the Gay Liberation Front to the Peace Movement and the overall youth movement, only to be rebuffed time and time again because those movements were afraid of being seen as "too pink" (and, by "pink", they didn't mean communist/socialist).

            It wasn't until a handful of drag queens, lesbians, and gay men had had bloody damn enough after one police raid too many in the Stonewall Bar that LGBT stood up for ourselves and fought back.  And we had no allies in that fight.  None.

            Perhaps you should learn LGBT history before you go talk about it.

            •  for your information, friend, i worked in ny (0+ / 0-)

              in the theatre and ballet for the majority of my career.  i worked and was friends with many people who were finally able to be themselves - and worked with and was friend with those who faced horrific discrimination.  

              you choose to give several isolated individuals about whom you have read (given that you were not even born when betty freidan incident occurred) as total proof of what was happening.  

              you again have not dealt with the FACT that i was living this contemporaneously and was/is aware of the dialogue that was starting by MY generation at the time.

              it is frightening to think that you teach "culture" from a position of distance and refuse flatly to open your own mind to the possibility that there is more to the history than you have assumed.  perhaps, it is not i who should go learn history.  

              were you to learn "history", you would learn that issues do not change miraculously overnght. as i said previously, we opened the door so that it could be pushed open - before my generation, the discussions of equality never existed.  only the prejudice was there.  and, yes, SOME of the prejudice is still there - but the door is opened and now, gays can openly serve in the military, in some states- can legally marry and more.  

              the problem, now, as i see it with SOME in generations x,y,z and more is they blame my generation for not "fixing" everything for them.  well, sorry - it takes work on your part, too.  we started something but if you want it better, pick up the ball and carry it forward.  we are not going to be around to "give" you everything you want - you're damned well going to have to do some of the heavy lifting now that we are old!

              EdriesShop coupon code for february is FEBRUARYBLOWOUT. More to come in the next few days! - Is GlowNZ back yet?

              by edrie on Thu Mar 01, 2012 at 02:20:09 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yeah, okay, whatever. (0+ / 0-)

                I stand by what I said.  That is the history of the movement.

                My mind is open.  Yours is not.  You insist that everyone listen to you, and you haven't spent a moment listening to anyone else.

                You're right.  This discussion is over, but you have confirmed everything I've already suspected.  I thank you for that.

            •  if you are going to use betty freidan as your (0+ / 0-)

              reason for your misstatement, then perhaps you should do some additional reading about her support for gays.

              you pick and choose to bolster your own argument but you forget to do thorough research, thus, your argument can easily be debunked.

              while i do not usually link to wikipedia, this entry is appropriately footnoted so that you can look up the exact positions yourself.  as a former college teacher myself, my assignment to you is to do your own homework before stating a position as unequivocal fact.  here is the link - and here is the quote with approprite notations for expansion.

              as per the wiki entry on betty freidan and her opinions on lesbian politics"

              When she grew up in Peoria, Ill., she knew one gay man. She said, "the whole idea of homosexuality made me profoundly uneasy."[21] She later acknowledged that she had been very square and was uncomfortable about homosexuality.

              "The women's movement was not about sex, but about equal opportunity in jobs and all the rest of it. Yes, I suppose you have to say that freedom of sexual choice is part of that, but it shouldn't be the main issue ...."[22]

              She ignored lesbians in the National Organization for Women (NOW) initially but objected to what she saw as demands for equal time.[21] "'Homosexuality ... is not, in my opinion, what the women's movement is all about.'"[23]

              While opposing all repression, she wrote, she refused to wear a purple armband or self-identify as a lesbian (although heterosexual) as an act of political solidarity, considering it not part of the mainstream issues of abortion and child care.[24]

              In 1977, at the National Women's Conference, she seconded a lesbian rights resolution "which everyone thought I would oppose" in order to "preempt any debate" and move on to other issues she believed were more important and less divisive in the effort to add the Equal Rights Amendment (ERA) to the U.S. Constitution.[25]

              She accepted lesbian sexuality ("'Enjoy!'"), albeit not its politicization.[26] In 1995, at the United Nations Fourth World Conference on Women, in Beijing, China, she found Chinese advice to taxi drivers that naked lesbians would be "cavorting" in their cars and so drivers should hang sheets and that lesbians would have AIDS and so drivers should have disinfectants to be "ridiculous", "incredibly stupid", and "insulting".[27]

              In 1997, she wrote that "children ... will ideally come from mother and father."[28] She wrote in 2000, "I'm more relaxed about the whole issue now[.]"[29]

              as i pointed out to you earlier, we opened the door in the 60s.  with the sexual revolution, we made it possible for the natural extension of that revolution to include gays.  the changes over the 60s and 70s came in slow shifts, not in a cataclysmic instant change.  no one waved a magic wand and said "POOF! BEGONE discrimination and prejudice!"  it took years of fighting and that fight for equality continues through today.

              what i see from your posts (and please feel free to correct me if i am wrong) is a strong resentment from you that we have not been able to complete the process that we have started so that yours and future generations could reap the benefits.  

              i am struck by your anger at the boomer generation and the harsh judgmental comments you have made in this thread.   you appear to believe that we have done nothing of value because there is still work to be done.  you deny that my generation was an important contributor to the process that still continues.

              i would be fascinated to hear your comparison of the world as WE knew it in the 40s and 50s to the world that we changed in the 60s and 70s.  (the world you had not entered yet, btw.)

              and, as this started off as a discussion on how television and technology helped make those changes possible (JUST as the cell phone and tweets have made dramatic alterations in the world in the last months), i am curious how this conversation devolved into an attack on the boomer generation.  as i said in an earlier comment... wow.  just wow.

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              by edrie on Thu Mar 01, 2012 at 03:05:14 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Your quote... (0+ / 0-)

                ...REALLY doesn't help your position at all.  Re-read it.

                It reconfirms her intense homophobia.  She "recanted" only in that it had embarrassed her in the past, and she didn't want lesbianism to be a "distraction" to feminism any more.

                And it took her until 1995 to become that "enlightened".

                What's truly sad is that you really don't know this history, yet you think you do because you "lived it".

                •  you are wrong. simply put. ....... (0+ / 0-)

                  and you cannot see it or admit it.

                  i guess our first encounter was more accurate than subsequent ones.  too bad.

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                  by edrie on Thu Mar 01, 2012 at 04:00:02 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  No, I'm not wrong on this. (0+ / 0-)

                    Go and re-read it.  It's not a matter of not seeing it or not admitting it.  It doesn't say what you appear to want it to say.

                    I'm sorry, but it just doesn't.

                    •  i am capable of understanding what she said. (0+ / 0-)

                      it is what you say that is being debated.  

                      you have stated that the boomer generation did nothing to advance gay rights (not true).  you accused freidan of the following:

                      In fact, Betty Friedan led feminists in 1969 in an anti-lesbian crusade that poisoned feminism against lesbians for an entire generation, writing that lesbians were a "Lavender Menace" threatening the entire movement, shoving lesbians back into their closets in service of the "greater good".  She called lesbians a "clear and present danger" to the movement, and distanced NOW from the Daughters of Bilitis (at the time, the only lesbian organization in the U.S.).
                      in that statement, you were wrong.  friedan (NOTE: my spelling corrected from earlier reversal of i and e) lead a movement to get women recognized in the work place and in society.  she was NOT starting a "gay rights" movement which would have distracted from her writings on women's rights to equal employment, health care, birth control, etc.

                      and, you neglect to put in context her objection to the insertion of homosexuality into the feminist movement.  in MY day - one which i lived DURING the explosion of the work "the feminine mystique" onto our identities, the common accusation from the men (who were threatened by our expression of self worth) was that we were all "lesbians".  that was the term used to denigrate and undermine the movement.

                      at that particular point in time, homophobia was rampant.  gays were afraid to admit their own sexuality and the spectre of "gayness" was to push women back into the kitchen.

                      that friedan and others in the feminist movement fought against being labeled lesbians (which they were not, btw), was to prevent the movement from being stopped in its tracks.

                      it is ONLY through the feminist movement, which resulted in access to birth control and, eventually, the right to determine whether or not a woman had to bear a fetus to term, that the gays found the cover and support to speak up and speak out.  it was OUR generation's acceptance of sexual freedom that gave rise to the possibility of gays becoming visible members of society.

                      you take out of context some small fragment of a movement without understanding the greater whole of that movement and twist it to support your own preconceived bias.  that is both unfortunate and ...  well, i won't use the word i started to use - i'll just end with "unfortunate".

                      •  Ask your lesbian friends about Friedan. (0+ / 0-)

                        Seriously.  This was not a "minor thing".  Look into the "Radicalesbians".  There was very real, very tangible anger, and Friedan's "Lavender Menace" comment led to the creation of a resistant lesbian-feminist movement.

                        It's not a "small fragment of a movement", and I certainly understand the whole of it, thank you very much.

                        You're way, way off-base here, and the first part of your post is just justifying her homophobia.  It's sad and lame, but an oh-so-typical defense of the homophobia (or other bigotry) of one's heroes.

                        •  dear, you are too young to understand what (0+ / 0-)

                          was happening in the time and context of my generation.  you were not born yet.

                          you are missing what i posted.  whether or not friedan was resistant to the movement of lesbians in the TIMEFRAME that it happened is NOT what i am alluding to.

                          the attempts to take the movement into a direction that the nation was not ready to address was the issue.  you do NOT seem to be able to comprehend the situation as it existed in the time this occurred.

                          as long as you continue to look at this through modern perspective and judgement, you will never understand.

                          what an idiotic claim that i am defending homophobia.  there are times that i think the younger gay activists don't have a clue what it was like to live before the 60s and the changes that occurred because of that generation.

                          you are sadly misguided. and you continue to refuse to acknowledge that you might not know "everything" about this matter.

                          this is a self sustaining ignorance.  and it does harm to the movement to obtain gay rights in this nation.  who do you think is STILL on the ground fighting for YOUR issue?  you do not have sufficient majorities to win this battle without those from multiple generations, including mine.

                          so, before you go off blowing off - i suggest you step away from the computer and take a deep breath - while the REST of us keep on fighting for your right to marry, live openly, etc.

                          alienating us is non-productive.  fortunately for you, i am not swayed by the chosen ignorance of a single individual.  i will continue fighting for your rights in spite of your open hostility and deliberate misrepresentation of what my generation has done to benefit you.

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