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View Diary: Breaking: Power Mad DA Charges Berkeley Professor & Students Beaten by UC Police. (283 comments)

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  •  So you're in favor (7+ / 0-)

    of the use of pain to enforce "compliance" mit orders?  I guess that's "centrism" in its finest, purist form.

    The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike from sleeping under bridges. ~ Anatole France

    by ActivistGuy on Thu Mar 08, 2012 at 09:30:15 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, I am. Standard police procedure. (7+ / 0-)

      First, you ask.  Then you gently direct the person with your hand.   Then, you grab them, gently, and repeat your request to move.  Then, if you don't obtain cooperation, you apply enough force to obtain compliance, like when Mom used to grab your ear.  

      It should never have to get worse than a firm request, unless you want to prove a point and provoke a beat down.  

      Living proof that hard work can raise your apparent skill level.

      by SpamNunn on Thu Mar 08, 2012 at 09:54:14 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Spoken like a true "experienced practitioner of (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        An Affirming Flame

        civil disobedience"

      •  Use enough force to obtain compliance? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JayRaye, roadbear, jpmassar

        Geez are we still in America?

        It's hard for those who work in the legal "system" to see this, so I'll spell it out:

        In poorer neighborhoods we don't trust the cops. We don't trust the legal system. We don't respect them. We don't like them. We don't see them as "heroes" or "protectors". We don't call them in emergencies. We avoid them whenever possible. We tell our children to avoid them.

        This is true for a large segment of the population, for minorities and for poor whites, urban, small town, and rural. We only "comply" because they force us to.

        It's wrong. The cops are supposed to enforce the law with our consent. They don't have it. Don't you see that we are quickly becoming a police state?

        "I read this- Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. I read every last word of this garbage, and because of this piece of $#!^ I'm never reading again!"-Officer Barbrady

        by Broke And Unemployed on Thu Mar 08, 2012 at 02:28:11 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  That's the way it works. Has for a long time. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      VClib, rcnewton
    •  You aren't? You are ok with police (6+ / 0-)

      telling people they have to move or they will be arrested, the people refusing and resisting, and -- then what?  The police can't do anything about it?  

      I don't want a society where people feel free to resist the police and the police aren't allowed to do anything about it. It's not supposed to be "equal" here.  People are supposed to submit to the police (either complying with orders to move or submitting to arrest) -- and they argue about it later in court if they think the police were wrong.

      My biggest experience with peaceful crowds is here in New Orleans during Mardi Gras.  And everybody knows that, in those crowds, if the police tell you to move, you move -- and if you don't, and  if you resist, you'll pretty much be wrestled to the ground exactly like that.  The police can't be negotiating with people over whether they will comply with police orders.  

      •  There you go. (4+ / 0-)
        People are supposed to submit to the police
        Now we understand why you are here. I can well imagine you in 1776.  Or 1984.
        •  Or with Gandhi. Or MLK. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          coffeetalk, rcnewton

          It ain't a game, kids.   If you actively resist, you will get a beat down.

          Living proof that hard work can raise your apparent skill level.

          by SpamNunn on Thu Mar 08, 2012 at 11:33:59 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  You don't? You think it's ok to resist police? (6+ / 0-)

          When police tell me to move, you think I have the right to say no? If they then try to physically move me, I have the right to resist?  and if they then try to arrest me, I have the right to resist?  Is that what you are saying?  When do I have the right to refuse a police order and to resist arrest?  Whenever I think I'm right?  Does everybody have that right, or only people you agree with politically?  

          Like I said, you'd better not come down here during Mardi Gras.  If the police tell you to move, you move, or they will physically move you, and if you resist that, they'll use force to arrest you.  The rest of us could not have a peaceful gathering if they didn't.  

          •  Uh (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Lady Libertine
            When police tell me to move, you think I have the right to say no?
            If it is an illegal order, then indeed.  If it is an unconstitutional order, even if it is what the police consider a legal order, then yes.

            The police have no right, in my mind, to order someone to move when they are peacefully assembling, regardless of what they may think.

            •  We don't live in your mind (10+ / 0-)
              The police have no right, in my mind, to order someone to move when they are peacefully assembling, regardless of what they may think.
              We live in the real world.   If the college, which owns the property, asked the police to clear the sidewalk, that's all you need to know.

              Living proof that hard work can raise your apparent skill level.

              by SpamNunn on Thu Mar 08, 2012 at 12:00:45 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  So you get to decide what an illegal order is? (6+ / 0-)

              Hallelujah! Our long national nightmare with that archaic thing called 'the justice system' is finally over!

              Your arrest may be illegal. It may be an illegal order. But guess what? In our country, you don't get to decide that - the court system gets to.

              Are you okwith a tea bagger deciding that a police order is illegal and taking action? I mean, under your criteria, it's totally up to him to decide if it's unconstitutional.

              Screw the courts! What do they know? Bunch of Male, Lawyer Oppressors!

              Do you see where your logic stream goes wrong here? Let the courts decide.

              •  Justice system is corrupt (4+ / 0-)

                Inevitably, this the next step in the logical argument.

                Is it true? In some areas, possibly. But for the most part that's not the case and in any regard, if it is corrupt, then we are long past the point where protesting is going to be remotely effective.

                It would seem then, by the standard of some of the arguments here, that you should be out in the streets with guns and torches making your own constitutional decisions because the alternative seems so bleak.

                I however, believe that the system isn't too broken not to be fixed and that a civil society does depend on having some actual rules in place - in this case, that police authority serves a role.

            •  Absurd. Just absurd. (6+ / 0-)

              Here's the deal -- if every citizen had the right to decide, on the spot, that they thought it was an "illegal or unconstitutional order" and that gave them the right to resist police, then no one would ever submit to arrest.  Everyone would say, "I don't think I should be arrested" and resist arrest.  For anything.  What possible incentive could they have for submitting to arrest?  

              That's tantamount to telling people they can decide when they want to obey a police order and they can decide when they want to be arrested or not.  And how much resistance can they put up?  If the police pull a gun on me, tell me I'm under arrest, under your view, I guess I can shoot back at them, since they pulled the gun first, right?  If police grab me, and tell me I'm under arrest, under your view, I guess I can punch and kick them to get them to let me go.  After all, if I think it's "illegal," I don't have to submit to arrest, and I can resist, in your view.

              No sane person who believes in a civilized society, governed by law, can seriously believe this.  

              If you think the police are brutal NOW, wait until you have a system where every single person the police encounter is free to resist police orders or resist arrest if, in their minds, they think the police order or arrest is "illegal."  I can see the thinking now.  "I have a right to stand in the street, I won't move."  "That was an illegal traffic stop.  I won't obey the order to get out of my car."  "That was an illegal search.  He has no right to arrest me.  I'll fight back."  If you think the police are brutal NOW, just imagine how it would be under a system where the police had to expect people to physically resist them any time those people wanted to.  The police would have a physical confrontation like that virtually every time they tried to move people or arrest people.  Either that, or the police force would be completely ineffective -- they could never move crowds (nobody would listen to them) and they could never make arrests (people would simply refuse to be arrested).  

              Not to mention that your view would essentially invalidate laws against resisting arrest.  After all, in your view, I have a right to resist arrest if, in my mind, I think the arrest is illegal, don't I?  So, how could I ever be charged with resisting arrest?

              This is just so ridiculous, I can't believe that you really adhere to something like that.  It also means that you don't believe in our justice system, which is where you are supposed to get justice if you think the police "illegally" told you to move or "illegally" arrested you.  I guess being relegated to using the justice system is one more symbol of oppression to you.  

              •  You don't get it. Some people just (5+ / 0-)

                know that they are right, and that everyone else is just too stupid or craven to admit that.

                When you are convinced that you are imbued with the infallible moral authority to determine what is "right"and what is "wrong", in the deepest metaphysical sense of those words, you actually do get to decide whether you obey an order, and whether it's "lawful" or not.

                That the majority of society might actually defer to those laws promulgated on behalf of society by our courts and governments is of little moment to one as blessed as that.  

                Living proof that hard work can raise your apparent skill level.

                by SpamNunn on Thu Mar 08, 2012 at 12:43:28 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Then we become no better than our opponent (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  SpamNunn, rcnewton

                  When you are convinced that you are imbued with the infallible moral authority to determine what is "right"and what is "wrong", in the deepest metaphysical sense of those words, you actually do get to decide whether you obey an order, and whether it's "lawful" or not.

                  This is not, and should not, be the ideological convictions of someone who is truly progressive. In fact, the concept displayed above is a terrifyingly correct definition of the fundamentalist right wing.

                  Power-Worshipping Fascist

                  by campionrules on Thu Mar 08, 2012 at 01:03:14 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

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