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View Diary: The Curious but Obvious Connection between Prop 8 and Contraception (70 comments)

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  •  Recc'd and tipped. (11+ / 0-)

    I find the "psychology" behind gender discussions fascinating.

    I do take some issue with your premise of homophobia as a reaction to "relinquishing masculinity":  I can't say I disagree...perhaps I view it as incomplete?

    My eldest daughter and I were discussing related issues, yesterday.

    In some sense, I find the homophobic reaction to gay males as more of something rooted in fear; fear of the "sexual aggression" long associated with the role of the masculine in sexual relations.

    The fight to maintain the military's Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy was largely waged through a campaign of fear about gay men raping straight soldiers in the showers. The fight to maintain unequal marriage laws has been waged on purported gay male promiscuity. It is gay male unworthiness that has been the impetus for most anti-gay policies and laws.
    That's fear; fear of sexual aggression.  Fear that the stereotypical attributes of masculinity aren't forsaken and instead, practiced not "against" women, but "against" straight males...who then could become subject to their own practices...

    What I cannot wrap my head around is the homophobic reaction to "gay male promiscuity?"  If gay men are supposedly so promiscuous, dallying about with each other and not a care in the homophobes hate them because they're, essentially, jealous of the sexual freedom?

    "The most potent weapon in the hands of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed." ~ Steven Biko

    by Marjmar on Thu Mar 08, 2012 at 12:22:25 PM PST

    •  jealous & envious? (7+ / 0-)

      This is a question gay men have pondered many times. Are the haters angry at gays because gays seem to get sex so easy - whereas women, holders of the key to straight satisfaction make straight men pay & pay & pay just to get a little? The haters rant & rave out of envy & jealousy?

      One of the tenets of the anti-gay ideology is that homosexuality is a choice - thus the haters themselves could choose to get all that easy sex? In order to hold themselves back they must demonize the gay, make the gay choice so socially risky that the haters can't choose it themselves ... This seems to be the case, actually, with many a deeply closeted homophobe. Their opposition to glbt civil rights may stem from self-hatred; so long as no one can choose to be gay (choose easy, consequence-free sex?) then the closeted self-hater is safe from his own authentic self.

      This is all very weird. Internally inconsistent. Hypocritical. Very Republican?

    •  I've always thought that the complaints of (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Marjmar, commonmass, catleigh

      gay male promiscuity emanated from a place of jealousy on the part of heterosexual male homophobes.

    •  "who then could become subject to their own (10+ / 0-)


      This is what I am talking about above. There was a book I read about the Haitian uprising years ago which talked about how brutal the slave owners were, and how their horror of what the freed slaves would do to them was a direct result of the suppressed shame and guilt of the monstrosities they themselves engaged in.

      Poverty = politics.

      by Renee on Thu Mar 08, 2012 at 07:26:56 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well, that's it then, isn't it. (7+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        RfrancisR, Renee, nzanne, maf1029, commonmass, SuWho, sb

        RfrancisR has offered that homophobia and sexism go hand-n-hand; that homophobia is expressed towards men for "relinquishing their manhood."

        I think perhaps instead of the hate reaction being born out of disrespect for said "relinquishing"...the hate is a fear reaction and an insistence that said "manhood" be relinquished.  That gay men must be cast in(to) the less powerful gender space occupied by women.

        In this way, the straight male haters can (try) to retain the power role; the role of sexual aggressor.

        For women haters, the alleged promiscuity of gay men confronts the "good girls don't" directive most women are raised to adhere to.  Additionally, promiscuous gay men may also be perceived as presenting a challenge to the one "power" women have long held, that of sexual gate-keeper/activity regulator.

        LuvSet noted the belief that being gay is viewed as a "lifestyle choice" making the (presumed) choice to upend the gender-rules-of-being and present a challenge to the respective powers of "stereotypical" gender roles...

        Well, that's scary for the narrow and weak minded.

        Renee, thank you for helping me think through this.  Your comment was clarifying.

        "The most potent weapon in the hands of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed." ~ Steven Biko

        by Marjmar on Thu Mar 08, 2012 at 07:49:20 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well, the "lifestyle choice" thing, I think came (7+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Marjmar, nzanne, maf1029, commonmass, catleigh, SuWho, sb

          out of a desire by "Christians" to be able to love the sinner and hate the sin. It came from our taunts of them being haters which stung.

          I agree with what you see, but I also think that this is the patriarchy at work in that there is a loathing of gay males giving up privilege. I've always seen that there is a tie between the distain towards gay men and towards women. And in my experience gay men get lots more hostility directed at them than lesbians.

          Poverty = politics.

          by Renee on Thu Mar 08, 2012 at 08:30:25 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Agreed. (6+ / 0-)

            But what of the nearly universal straight male response to the question of "What is the turn on about lesbians?" (And there is, undoubtedly) - they reply (almost universally, because I've "asked around" for 25+ yrs) "They need me."

            And I'm not kidding; that exact three word response is #1, far ahead of all others...

            And, I'm left scratching my head over that one...

            All I can figure is that answer is as unvarnished a primal lizard brained response from a straight male as you're likely to get.  But that doesn't mean I understand it.

            "The most potent weapon in the hands of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed." ~ Steven Biko

            by Marjmar on Thu Mar 08, 2012 at 08:47:41 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Because they can't see women as having (6+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Marjmar, dskoe, catleigh, Nina Katarina, sb, Chi

              our own agency. We are seen as … (a little anger here) receptacles. Also until recently our entire country defined glbt folk as solely our sexuality. Even now, the "Christian" right wants to pretend that if you are glb and you don't "act on it" then you aren't glb any more.

              So lesbians are just regarded as being for the satisfaction of these jerks.

              Poverty = politics.

              by Renee on Thu Mar 08, 2012 at 09:07:53 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  I've long assumed (13+ / 0-)

      straight men who fear homosexuals do so because they are afraid gay men will treat them the way the straight men treat women.

      When you come to find how essential the comfort of a well-kept home is to the bodily strength and good conditions, to a sound mind and spirit, and useful days, you will reverence the good housekeeper as I do above artist or poet, beauty or genius.

      by Alexandra Lynch on Thu Mar 08, 2012 at 08:16:00 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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