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View Diary: "When you come back in 24 hours, the legal side is over." (116 comments)

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  •  Correct (31+ / 0-)

    Unfortunately, the choice they made about quality of life just doesn't enter into some minds.

    "Tide goes in, tide goes out. Never a miscommunication. You can’t explain that." -- Bill O'Reilly

    by tytalus on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 11:24:44 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  You know... (29+ / 0-)

      I'm unabashedly pro-choice. I believe in abortion on demand and without apology. I thin the woman in the story should have had access to a safe, legal abortion the moment she decided she wanted one.

      Even so, I'm kind of bothered by the idea that the poster fetuses for abortion, as it were, should be previously-wanted pregnancies that turn out to have congenital but not necessarily-fatal congenital disabilities.

      It's not out of any particular concern for the fetus in question, which isn't a person yet and has no legitimate claim on its mother's uterus. I just think that it's somewhat insulting to actual people living with congenital disabilities - it sends the message that we don't value their existence and their lives. That their lives somehow justify abortion.

      When, in fact, abortion doesn't need to be justified on the basis of any characteristic of the fetus - it's about the mother, and the father if involved, and their lives and health.

      "Let’s just move on, treat everybody with firmness, fairness, dignity, compassion and respect. Let’s be Marines." - Sgt. Maj Michael Barrett on DADT repeal

      by kyril on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 01:37:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Good point (17+ / 0-)

        'poster fetus,' that's a good way to put it. Like poster boys for the death penalty. I agree, it should be about the people and not the potential people. But I can understand not wishing that kind of pain on anyone.

        Kind of an odd context though, in that conservative Republicans (through the state) are wishing pain and suffering on people.

        "Tide goes in, tide goes out. Never a miscommunication. You can’t explain that." -- Bill O'Reilly

        by tytalus on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 01:44:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well, I think the mother (19+ / 0-)

          should be able to make the decision on whatever basis she likes, including concern for the potential child's quality of life if she wants to.

          I just don't think stories like this do us any favors in advancing the pro-choice argument. They send the message that we think some abortions are so obviously necessary and understandable that their stories will convince the other side, and that among them are abortions of wanted fetuses with congenital disabilities. That just seems to devalue the lives of people with disabilities. And it reinforces some of the messages conservatives have been successfully promoting about liberals.

          (I have the same issue with pushing rape and incest as justifications for abortion. Yes, I believe a woman who has been raped should have access to an abortion. No, I do not believe she should have that access because the pregnancy resulted from rape. I think she should have it because every woman should be free to choose if and when she wants to be pregnant.)

          "Let’s just move on, treat everybody with firmness, fairness, dignity, compassion and respect. Let’s be Marines." - Sgt. Maj Michael Barrett on DADT repeal

          by kyril on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 02:01:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I agree, up to the point (12+ / 0-)

            where you say that it doesn't do us any favors. I think this story might help to move some people's opinions. Hopefully in that respect it'll do more good than harm.

            This reminds me of capital punishment, again. There's a certain fixation with the potential innocents on death row, where a lot of other cases just...go by, in the news, with hardly a peep. I see the mixed message there, and you're right, there is one here too.

            All I can say about it is that it's not my intent, and I'm sorry for leaving that opening. My intent is progress toward a goal it seems like we share.

            "Tide goes in, tide goes out. Never a miscommunication. You can’t explain that." -- Bill O'Reilly

            by tytalus on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 02:12:42 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Also, how many people have contact with (6+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              wishingwell, fumie, Lujane, Chi, moiv, Matt Z

              people with congenital abnormalities? Most I've seen are children of rich people who have 'staff' to deal with them. Others are tucked away in state institutions or smaller group homes.

              There are those who can function in society, but others require a LOT of care. And who pays for the non-rich patients? You and me. I'm not saying there should be a test before birth; it is the mom's decision.

              But quality of life for the fetus, parents, other siblings, etc., needs to be considered.

              If you do not believe that there is an ongoing war on women, then you aren't paying attention. h/t The Pootie Potentate

              by glorificus on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 02:32:08 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  not really the case. There is a shortage of (6+ / 0-)

                living arrangements for people with serious disabilities and a really great shortage of good places. Many live with their parents and few of these parents are rich. And when the parents are too elderly to care for a severely disabled grown child, they may end up in places that are at best barely adequate.
                Seems like Santorum must have a staff to deal with his youngest child since everyone else is on the campaign trail, but having been part of the disability community I can tell you that is the exception not the norm. I knew of only one family in the school our son went to who had a live-in person who took care of their severely disabled child around the clock. The rest of the families at the school all managed by patching together all sorts of arrangements.
                Our son needed daily respiratory therapy but our insurance would only cover it a couple of times/week, so my husband got up extra early almost every morning to pound on his chest. Imagine how hard it is to go out since you can't just hire your local teenager to babysit.
                I went to bed exhausted and woke up exhausted and in-between worried about my son's future. What would happen to him if something happened to us? Would he be warehoused and treated like an inanimate object (we had seen exactly that in an institution). I couldn't stand the idea of him not getting hugged and loved and talked to.

                We're not perfect, but they're nuts! -- Barney Frank

                by Tamar on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 08:12:29 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Stories like this one do affect the squishy middle (10+ / 0-)

              of the road people i have met over the years.  They are the ones who want abortion in cases of rape , incest and situations like this.  They do not want it outlawed and they are very sympathetic to couples trying to conceive and then this happens.

              I happen to favor abortion for everyone who requests one. I am just saying that I have some friends who are in the middle on this issue and this kind of story does affect their views a lot.

      •  I don't believe it's that at all. (24+ / 0-)

        My daughter had the same thing happen to her.  As a young couple, just starting out, the thought of the child suffering his whole live, along with astronomical medical bills to care for him gave them pause.  They decided on abortion if the results of the tests came back with the news that he would be severely handicapped for the rest of his life.

        It had nothing to do with the fact that he was going to be a human being in name only.  It had everything to do with not allowing this human being to live a life of suffering.

        Lucky for them, their, now 16 year old, is a healthy young man.

        love the fetus, hate the child

        by Raggedy Ann on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 01:48:06 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I felt something similar to this when I read this (12+ / 0-)

        but I didn't have the patience to find a good way to put it out there. So I'm really glad that you did.

        Poverty = politics.

        by Renee on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 01:58:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  These, though, are OUR "wedge issues" (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tytalus, profewalt, OhioNatureMom, moiv, SuWho

        The ones where the "moral implications" are quite clear to anyone who isn't blinkered and hoodwinked by theofascist propaganda.

        We push back where we're strongest, not weakest. It's the same dirty tactics the other side uses, and we will have to use their own methods against them.

        If it's
        Not your body,
        Then it's
        Not your choice
        And it's
        None of your damn business!

        by TheOtherMaven on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 02:59:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  No, the family just decided they could not cope. (6+ / 0-)

        They made a choice.

        Your last point I agree with, they should not have to justify the choice. It should be theirs to make.  And they made it based on their lives and what they felt they could handle at that time.

        ♥ Medicare For All. ♥
        "Our health care system is like a casino. The insurance industry is the House... The House always wins." -- UnaSpenser

        by Chi on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 03:43:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  as the mother of a child (now deceased) who was (12+ / 0-)

        severely disabled, I have no problem with the idea of getting an abortion because of congenital problems.
        My child, whom I dearly loved, needed constant care: physically backbreaking (literally as both of us developed back problems), financially ruinous, emotionally exhausting and socially isolating. None of it was the poor little guy's fault -- he just had terrible luck.
        When we decided to have another child after our son's stroke (which was what caused his disabilities), we had genetic counseling and every test in the book done, and I'm not apologetic about it.
        A family in our neighborhood had 2 sons with fragile X syndrome, one born before the first was correctly diagnosed. Watching that mother with 2 very sweet, very lovable but completely out-of-control boys would be educational for anyone who thinks that abortion should be illegal. She never looked rested -- her exhaustion was palpable and her view of the future grim. These boys were so hyperactive and so strong that they were a danger to themselves and others, even though they never meant to do any harm. I was advised by another neighbor never to let them inside my car or house because of the damage they had done to hers.
        The couple wanted a child who would develop normally, so when they got pregnant with their 3rd child, they had the testing done and made damn sure they were having a girl.
        The men in these state legislatures requiring ultrasounds say they want the pregnant woman fully informed. Fully informed should include information on what you might face in terms of the care needed for a child with a congenital condition. Some people can handle these problems, and others can't. That decision should come from the families not from some outside authority

        We're not perfect, but they're nuts! -- Barney Frank

        by Tamar on Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 07:57:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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