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View Diary: The progressive fight against the encroachment of religion on our secular government (202 comments)

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  •  Render unto Caesar that which is (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    live1

    Caesar's.... But if your taxes are paying for the war machinery and the criminal injustice system, it rather weakens the force of your objection.

    The power of the Occupy movement is that it ....realizes a fundamental truth about American politics… there is no way to vote against the interests of Goldman Sachs.

    by orson on Sun Mar 18, 2012 at 10:34:05 AM PDT

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    •  I have no idea what this means. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Rogneid

      Honestly, I have no idea what you intend to communicate here.

      It is a simple question. Quaker CO accommodation [should / should not] be allowed in the USA.

      No one has to answer of course, but since you did decide to post an answer, why not actually answer the simple question?

      •  CO yes (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BPARTR, WheninRome, Rogneid

        but not because you're a Quaker.

        The power of the Occupy movement is that it ....realizes a fundamental truth about American politics… there is no way to vote against the interests of Goldman Sachs.

        by orson on Sun Mar 18, 2012 at 10:50:03 AM PDT

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        •  So no more Yom Kippur vacations for Jewish kids (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Clem Yeobright, old possum, Rogneid

          You Jewish kids stay in school because it is a school day right? The School board has made out the schedule, so attend or get marked down.

          You want to eat this Friday Catholic kid? Well then you eat that Salisbury Steak. There's not much meat in it.

          You do draw the line consistently at "nothing" right. Just want to be sure.

          •  This country has made accommodations to many (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            dfe, Quicklund, Brooke In Seattle

            religions, including not requiring a conscientiously objecting Quaker to serve in the military. In this case, the government has made an accommodation to churches (and only churches) that object to the use of contraceptives. It has been determined long ago that these accommodations aren't contrary to the precept of separation of church and state. Now the bishops want to push the goal line a little further, and HHS won't let them. Your premise is correct.

            Your left is my right---Mort Sahl

            by HappyinNM on Sun Mar 18, 2012 at 12:32:40 PM PDT

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          •  This is not an accurate parallel. Most schools (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            orson

            (I don't know, maybe all) will allow children to miss school for serious reasons, including observing their religion.  Also the miitary will allow for conscientious objection if it's a seroius, established belief of that person, and being Quaker certainly helps establish credibility -- but non-Quaker pacifists have also been granted exemptions.

            All of this has to do with the government allowing space for people with non-majority beliefs to live by their own beliefs.  In a pluralistic democracy, we should do that as much as possible.

            On the other hand, the Bishops want to be able to affect the behavior of people who do NOT share their beliefs.  They want to deny a Baptist or atheist secretary working for a Catholic university the right to choose insurnace that will cover birth control or (if she ever needs it) abortion.  So it's a matter of the Bishops controlling be choices of non-Catholics.  That is fundamentally different from letting a Quaker do their Quaker thing, or letting a Jewish or Catholic school kid do their particular religious/cultural thing.

            This all seems straightforward to me.  When civil rights laws were passed, conservative protestant church organizations had to be willing to hire black people -- not in the chuch itself, but in any secular institution run by the church.  The Catholics didn't object to that, as they agreed.  Now we've hit an issue they disagree with, and they're going nuts.

            The only place I might see an issue is when a Catholic institution is self-insured.  THat means they're much more directly creating and providing a service (insurance) that woudl be required to facilitate behavior they consider gravely immoral.  I need to think about that some more.  Maybe it means they have to provide more than one choice for their employees, including a insurance provider who will cover bc and abortion.

            The bottom line is, choices for themselves are okay; but they can't impose Catholic rules on non-Catholic employees that deprive them of access to normal, legal, available health-care.

            "Every part of you belongs to you." -- from a story of Virginia under the Personhood law. Read it here.

            by Fiona West on Sun Mar 18, 2012 at 04:47:06 PM PDT

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          •  Jewish kids get Yom Kippur (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            BYw

            vacation?  Who knew? Maybe in Queens. Seriously! Taking a long weekend from  school is not really analogous to a dispensation from military service.  What about religious use of peyote by native Americans? If a bishop can put his head up a woman's skirt in the name of religion, why can't the Navaho get high? We can pick nits all day and this dog will still have fleas.

            The power of the Occupy movement is that it ....realizes a fundamental truth about American politics… there is no way to vote against the interests of Goldman Sachs.

            by orson on Sun Mar 18, 2012 at 07:21:15 PM PDT

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