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View Diary: The Deal with Catholics (247 comments)

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  •  The discussion is very valuable to me. (12+ / 0-)

    I love what the diarist wrote about the generation love and the thinking ahead to the next generations.  The feminine why these practices happen and the Church is full of them whether they want to admit it or not.  Joining with the feminine of the past and future is a great comfort to me.  I am looking to leave the Church soon because the wonder of what I like can't get past the evil that is.  My thoughts have been that they will not chase me out but lately looking for the Divine in a place full of obvious evil isn't working for me.

    And she's good at appearing sane, I just want you to know. Winwood/Capaldi

    by tobendaro on Mon Mar 19, 2012 at 11:11:47 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Thank you (10+ / 0-)

      For sharing that.

      I think more people have that same experience than you know.  I certainly did.  It seems like the people who stay with the church forever are either the crazy wingnut jerks who do support the institution, or the people who never actually approach it from a spiritual vantage point.  

      It seems like the decent people who are committed Catholics are almost all probably closer to atheists, like they never talk about Jesus or Mary except as ideals, like in an abstract way.  The people who immediately come to mind find their spiritual expression in their connection to other human beings, and living in service to the world.  I doubt any of them experience the things I wrote about in this diary.  

      Think of Father Pfleger, his work, and the people who are devoted to him.  A lot of his supporters are there for the social justice, plain and simple.

      If I may give you a suggested stepping off point:

      There is only one life, all sentient beings share it.

      •  I don't think it matters if I stay (7+ / 0-)

        or not.  I don't think staying shows any support for the sin the hierarchy has and is perpetrating.  It is very true what you said about people staying for other reasons.  It is ok for one to just ignore the leader's evil and carry on with their immediate concerns because worship and spirituality is about community and God. It isn't about the Church.  Those people are pretty far removed from my parish and what happens.  We are small and get lots done in our area to alleviate poverty etc.  If the Church shut down tomorrow we would continue as a community and that is the essence of the Church not the hierarchy.  For me, I know what I know and I cannot in good conscience continue to be in communion with it.  I can't hide behind my own selfish motives anymore.  It just isn't working and the grief and anxiety that I feel because I may be contributing is too much for me.  

        And she's good at appearing sane, I just want you to know. Winwood/Capaldi

        by tobendaro on Mon Mar 19, 2012 at 12:30:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I could not do that. (8+ / 0-)
          It is ok for one to just ignore the leader's evil and carry on with their immediate concerns because worship and spirituality is about community and God. It isn't about the Church.
          My sense of integrity would be violated if I stayed in a group that had evil/hypocritical leaders to such a public
          degree that Catholic bishops have.

          But that is just where I am at, others have different opinions, obviously.

          •  Though as someone points out below (16+ / 0-)

            we could make an interesting analogy with citizenship.   Most of us specifically profess a sense of loyalty and affection to the USA, despite knowledge that many, many crimes have been committed by it, and on a grand scale too.   Secret wars and puppet dictators and disaster capitalism ad nauseum.  

            Yet we are able to deplore those evils while fixing our thoughts on certain goods which also exist.  And it mainly our familiarity, our belongness, our heritage, our TRIBAL affiliation which tips the balance and allows us to keep that rosy view.  

            I'm not a believer in any church.  But I think it's an interesting debate.

            "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

            by lgmcp on Mon Mar 19, 2012 at 05:32:14 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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