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  •  Your logic is sound. (14+ / 0-)

    An analogy would be in being a U.S. citizen. Whether we know it or not, the institutional head of this nation (the government) is guilty of some pretty bad stuff.

    While it is physically easier to leave the Catholic Church than renounce US citizenship, I'll bet it can be difficult in other ways. The US government would have to do some pretty horrific things squared before I headed north.

    Still, if I were a Catholic, I would be saying some words about the parts of the institution that allowed so much evil. Same with the government.

    •  I was raised Protestant. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Agent99

      I loved the community of a small neighborhood church.

      But when the people, who equate staying in a religion with staying in our country, do nothing to change the problems with their church, it is not the same thing.

      We on this site are working to elect better people to office. We can and do call the bad people out and rant and scream.

      Why do we not hear much from average Catholic people about getting better leaders? I think it should be loud and ongoing, but the attitude seems to be 'nothing's perfect, oh well.'

    •  I'd say is closer to being a Republican. (0+ / 0-)

      It's a heckuva lot easier to leave a church or a political party than a country...

      This, too, shall pass. Just like the last global ecological cataclysm. C'est la vie, dude. Take a chill pill, recite the serenity prayer, go with the flow and the moderates into that "goodnight".

      by Words In Action on Mon Mar 19, 2012 at 07:51:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  easier to leave a church than a country? (4+ / 0-)

        Its easier to renounce your understanding of the divine than it is to emigrate? I've changed nationalities three times but never changed my religious identity. I think it'd be far easier to do the former than the latter.

        Please don't answer if this is an excessively personal question, but have you ever renounced a religion that you believed in as an adult? It seems like that would be a process that would require some real redefinition of your own core identity.

        "Any plan I sign must include an insurance exchange ... including a public option" President Obama, 7.18.09

        by efraker on Mon Mar 19, 2012 at 07:59:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Your experience is hardly common. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          OhioNatureMom

          You have to admit that people leave/change organized religions far more frequently than they do nationalities.

          This, too, shall pass. Just like the last global ecological cataclysm. C'est la vie, dude. Take a chill pill, recite the serenity prayer, go with the flow and the moderates into that "goodnight".

          by Words In Action on Mon Mar 19, 2012 at 08:18:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No, I don't admit that at all? (0+ / 0-)

            In my experience most people do stick with the source of spiritual truth they were raised in for the same reasons as the diarist and I have... but we're just comparing meaningless anecdotes here. I don't know which is more common and I'm not interested in looking to see if there are meaningful statistics on this.

            I actually think it doesn't really matter. Maybe you're saying that you think it would be easy for someone to leave Catholicism... but what would you be basing that on? Do you think that your personal attachment to a faith can be generalized across all people? That things that are easy for you are easy for everyone? That things you don't value are things that no-one else 'really' values, either?

            If that is what you're saying, then I think a lot of Catholics would disagree with you on how easy it is to stop being Catholic.

            "Any plan I sign must include an insurance exchange ... including a public option" President Obama, 7.18.09

            by efraker on Mon Mar 19, 2012 at 08:27:17 PM PDT

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            •  We are quibbling over the difference between (0+ / 0-)

              easy and easier.

              You suggested that one can experience dissonance with one's religious affilation as with one's government or national affiliation.

              I said, essentially, that one could remedy dissonance with a religious institution, as with a political institution, much more easily than with one's country of origin.

              Regardless of whether a majority of people stick with the religion or political party of their birth than leave it, certainly more do leave their religion or political party than the country of there birth.

              THAT is what I have been saying. Whether it is "easy" or not is no the point. Simply that, as demonstrated by reality, one occurs much more frequently,

              This, too, shall pass. Just like the last global ecological cataclysm. C'est la vie, dude. Take a chill pill, recite the serenity prayer, go with the flow and the moderates into that "goodnight".

              by Words In Action on Mon Mar 19, 2012 at 08:53:47 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  no, we aren't (0+ / 0-)

                We're quibbling over this: "as demonstrated by reality, one occurs much more frequently,"

                I am not sure reality demonstrates that - I reserve judgment, and believe that no course of action can be recommended. You are certain that you're right, though you have no facts, just anecdotes, and you recommend that millions of people disassociate themselves from the Catholic church based on that.

                "Any plan I sign must include an insurance exchange ... including a public option" President Obama, 7.18.09

                by efraker on Mon Mar 19, 2012 at 09:20:52 PM PDT

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                •  anyway - I've made my point (0+ / 0-)

                  I know you get what I'm saying, though you may disagree, and I get what you're saying, though I think that what works for you may not work for others.

                  Thanks for taking the time to respond to me with courtesy and intelligence.

                  "Any plan I sign must include an insurance exchange ... including a public option" President Obama, 7.18.09

                  by efraker on Mon Mar 19, 2012 at 09:27:17 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  One can leave an organized religion without (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          efraker

          renouncing one's understanding of the divine. In fact, the point of leaving an organized religion is generally done in order to better honor one's understanding of the divine.

          This, too, shall pass. Just like the last global ecological cataclysm. C'est la vie, dude. Take a chill pill, recite the serenity prayer, go with the flow and the moderates into that "goodnight".

          by Words In Action on Mon Mar 19, 2012 at 08:19:51 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Facts demonstrate otherwise. More people leave (0+ / 0-)

          an organized religion than a nationality behind.

          Heck, there are religious institutions like the Unitarian Universalists which are basically collection points for religious transferees.

          I would venture that virtually any religious institution of any size has at least one if not many members who previously attended a church of a different institution.

          This, too, shall pass. Just like the last global ecological cataclysm. C'est la vie, dude. Take a chill pill, recite the serenity prayer, go with the flow and the moderates into that "goodnight".

          by Words In Action on Mon Mar 19, 2012 at 08:25:06 PM PDT

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          •  facts? (0+ / 0-)

            Can you point me to facts about how many human beings change their religion, and how many change their nationality? So far it seems like we're just talking about anecdotes.

            "Any plan I sign must include an insurance exchange ... including a public option" President Obama, 7.18.09

            by efraker on Mon Mar 19, 2012 at 08:30:25 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Obviously we are living on two different (0+ / 0-)

              planets if you actually need data to acknowledge the obvious truth of my statement.

              I can't tell you how many marsupials there are, but I'll bet everything I own that there are more mammals.

              Ditto for expatriots vs. people who have left a religious denomination.

              This, too, shall pass. Just like the last global ecological cataclysm. C'est la vie, dude. Take a chill pill, recite the serenity prayer, go with the flow and the moderates into that "goodnight".

              by Words In Action on Mon Mar 19, 2012 at 08:42:56 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  certainty that you're right doesn't make it so (0+ / 0-)

                You're deriving a course of action for millions of human beings ("I'm willing to say, unequivocally, it's better for all of us if people leave [the Catholic Church]") based on simple faith that you're right without any facts to back that up.

                This seems ironic.

                "Any plan I sign must include an insurance exchange ... including a public option" President Obama, 7.18.09

                by efraker on Mon Mar 19, 2012 at 09:18:55 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Tautological and lazy. n/t (0+ / 0-)

                I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

                by itsjim on Tue Mar 20, 2012 at 04:41:30 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  It's reall not that easy (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        efraker, JAM11, marykk, donaurora, martini

        to leave the church.  It's tribal.

        •  Maybe, but it's also incredibly common, at (0+ / 0-)

          least as compared to changing nationalities, which was my point. It's not that it's necessarily easy, but that it is easier.

          This, too, shall pass. Just like the last global ecological cataclysm. C'est la vie, dude. Take a chill pill, recite the serenity prayer, go with the flow and the moderates into that "goodnight".

          by Words In Action on Mon Mar 19, 2012 at 08:21:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I don't know. (0+ / 0-)

            I'm very skittish on deciding exactly how someone else's evolutionary trajectory should go.  What was easy for me may be impossible for someone else, and vice versa.  I can see that 9 out of 10 people who have felt what I feel about it would not be able to leave.  

            For example my foster parents.  They can't leave "Catholic" behind any more than they can leave "Mexican" behind, though they live in Chicago and speak English, etc.

            I'm in no way ambivalent, though.  It seems a lot of people can't relate to what I'm describing.  I'm not loyal to the church and never was.

            •  I'm understanding better what you are (0+ / 0-)

              describing as we converse...

              As a Utahn living amongst enormous multigenerational families and communities engaged in large part through very engaged Mormon and Mormon-related institutions. Even GLBTs struggle mightily with it, despite the obvious insult and injury to their identities, because doing so frequently means be shunned by everyone they've known and loved since they were born. But I do believe that they should do it, that not doing it not only hurts themselves but everyone else, not only other GLBT's, but everyone, because everyone will be better in a GLBT-supportive world. I hold the same as true for Republicans and Catholics, who need to leave in order take the oxygen out of those harmful organizations.

              This, too, shall pass. Just like the last global ecological cataclysm. C'est la vie, dude. Take a chill pill, recite the serenity prayer, go with the flow and the moderates into that "goodnight".

              by Words In Action on Mon Mar 19, 2012 at 08:39:26 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I still think (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                efraker

                That's not a fair judgment for you to make.  You're not living that person's life, you just can't know how it is for them.

                I once taught a class on consciousness development at the community college.  A woman took the class who was in her 60s and HAD NEVER HAD SEX.  Why?  Because she was gay and a devout Mormon.  She had left the church in her 40s, I think, moved to a galaxy far, far away, and was an organizer for NOW and other good causes.  

                But the concepts and ideas I presented in the class were so far out of her comfort zone that she at one point mentioned feeling assaulted by me asserting them.  For example when I suggested she stop believing in accidents, mistakes or coincidences, instead considering such occurrences "unconscious choices," she said she felt like I had kicked her in the stomach.

                So she has her own row to hoe, and she's going to have to do it at her own pace and in her own order.

                •  Well, fair or not, (0+ / 0-)

                  since the conseequences are significant to us all, I'm willing to make that judgment, based on what I know about the influence of the Catholic Church and the Republican Party. I'm willing to say, unequivocally, it's better for all of us if people leave those organizations.

                  This, too, shall pass. Just like the last global ecological cataclysm. C'est la vie, dude. Take a chill pill, recite the serenity prayer, go with the flow and the moderates into that "goodnight".

                  by Words In Action on Mon Mar 19, 2012 at 08:56:45 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  It is if you do it early enough. (0+ / 0-)

          I've been an atheist all my life, and out of every church entirely by seventh grade. I guess that's part of why I have such a keen sense of the difference between family and tribe, and why my loyalties are with the latter. But that's just me.

          into the blue again, after the money's gone

          by Prof Haley on Mon Mar 19, 2012 at 10:22:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  ^^^THIS (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Xavier Onassis EMTP, marykk

      I find it counterproductive in the extreme to leave a cultural institution of which one is a part because of that institution's flaws.

      Stay and change it.  Leaving it greatly reduces one's power to speak up against the injustices one laments.

      That I can say, "As a Catholic, ..." when speaking against the sins of the Church gives me the critical power I wouldn't otherwise have.  And it doesn't matter if the bishops don't care what I say; if enough of us say it, they will end up caring, even if the Church is not a democratic institution.  Eventually the bottom filters up, in the Church as well as our government, otherwise Vatican II would never have happened.

      Before elections have their consequences, Activism has consequences for elections.

      by Leftcandid on Tue Mar 20, 2012 at 09:28:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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