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  •  you are mistaken. (1+ / 0-)
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    Wee Mama

    14 Another one you forgot to Highlight: "If you're against unions - Don't join one." Unless you don't live in a right to work state and you are forced to join one, even if you are a Stay at home mom taking care of your disabled daughter and get Medicaid payments.
    Posted by: Montana Girl at March 20, 2012 03:48 PM (OqmyH)

    http://minx.cc/...

    that's just by googling the phrase.   Examine the etymology of phrases like "Right to work."  This is why "Employee Free Choice Act" was a good rebranding -- it emphasizes the democratic aspects of unions, while the fact remains that if workers are allowed to free-ride the unions can't operate.  It's a tricky case to make, though, and I don't think Congressman Speedy is being terribly helpful here.

    The study of law was certainly a strange discipline. -- Yukio Mishima

    by Loge on Tue Mar 20, 2012 at 02:58:43 PM PDT

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    •  No-one is forced to join a Union. (11+ / 0-)

      "We the People of the United States...." -U.S. Constitution

      by elwior on Tue Mar 20, 2012 at 03:01:48 PM PDT

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      •  that was not the argument (1+ / 0-)
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        Wee Mama

        workers do, however, have to contribute dues and are bound by collective bargaining agreements.  whether they choose to participate in the union governance process or not is a separate matter.  the only opt-out of that transaction is to not take the job in the first place.  now, this system happens to work well, certainly better than the alternative, but the fact remains that anti-union politicians use the concept of free choice against unions, so it's not the best example to bring up.  

        The fact that Alan Grayson needs to go dark for a while is a separate thing.  

        The study of law was certainly a strange discipline. -- Yukio Mishima

        by Loge on Tue Mar 20, 2012 at 03:40:10 PM PDT

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        •  I could not disagree with you more. (5+ / 0-)

          "We the People of the United States...." -U.S. Constitution

          by elwior on Tue Mar 20, 2012 at 03:54:19 PM PDT

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          •  you seem not to catch (0+ / 0-)

            that i'm defending the agency shop, which is why it's not a good idea to use the other side's rhetoric.  i don't think the objection is over whether or not people can simply choose not to join the union but whether the collective bargaining process even exists.  the former point requires a bit more explanation, given the attacks on organization so distracts from the whole.  What's next, the term death tax is ok because it's not actually a tax on death?

            The study of law was certainly a strange discipline. -- Yukio Mishima

            by Loge on Tue Mar 20, 2012 at 04:04:37 PM PDT

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        •  wrong (1+ / 0-)
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          pot
          the only opt-out of that transaction is to not take the job in the first place.
          You can pay representation fees, or you donate an equivalent amount of money to any of various charities.  In no case are you forced to join the union.

          Ask your barista what her degree is in.

          by happymisanthropy on Tue Mar 20, 2012 at 04:35:16 PM PDT

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          •  i am aware of that fact, (0+ / 0-)

            which is not the point of the objection, as i explained.  the "transaction" i was referring to was the contribution of fees in exchange for the terms of a collectively bargained for contract.  whether one then "joins" the union is entirely up to them, but the economics are already settled regardless.  that's what right-to-work folks reject, and they use language similar to that in the diary to make the point, rightly declining to elevate form over substance.  There are cogent and compelling reasons why the agency shop is better public policy, but rugged individualism ain't one of them.  

            The study of law was certainly a strange discipline. -- Yukio Mishima

            by Loge on Tue Mar 20, 2012 at 04:47:52 PM PDT

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            •  well, (0+ / 0-)

              if the economics were not set by collective bargaining, they would be set by unilateral stipulation on the employer's part.  In neither case does an individual worker have a significant say in the matter.

              Ask your barista what her degree is in.

              by happymisanthropy on Tue Mar 20, 2012 at 07:29:39 PM PDT

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              •  those are the "cogent and compelling" (0+ / 0-)

                reasons i was referring to.  yet for whatever reason anti-union folks have succeeded in treating this as one of individual choice which is why it's best to try a different framing.  And different spox from Grayson, but that's another matter.

                The study of law was certainly a strange discipline. -- Yukio Mishima

                by Loge on Wed Mar 21, 2012 at 05:46:02 AM PDT

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