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View Diary: It. Gets. Worse. (144 comments)

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  •  I think the answer to that (12+ / 0-)

    is "Prove it.  Get divorced tomorrow."

    Santorum 2012: When Satan isn't enough to scare the crap out of you.

    by Philpm on Thu Mar 22, 2012 at 06:03:56 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  I guess my real question is how they (7+ / 0-)

      explain in what way gay marriage will put traditional marriage at risk?

      Cats are better than therapy, and I'm a therapist.

      by Smoh on Thu Mar 22, 2012 at 06:22:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I always assumed (16+ / 0-)

        my marriage is what caused Al and Tipper to break up.

        "The first rule of pillow fight club is do not talk about pillow fight club." --Keith Olbermann

        by Julie Waters on Thu Mar 22, 2012 at 06:37:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Well, I think (7+ / 0-)

        that most people who think this way are mostly worried that their spouse will leave because they've treated them like shit for years, and this just gives them a new excuse.  "Hey, I'm gay, I want a divorce."  I think that's what scares them, since they think being gay is a choice.

        Santorum 2012: When Satan isn't enough to scare the crap out of you.

        by Philpm on Thu Mar 22, 2012 at 07:00:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Being gay is a choice, sort of (3+ / 0-)

          That is, being openly gay (or bi) - or staying in the closet pretending, repressing, and denying.

          I can imagine a few marriages ending, if marriage equality becomes the tipping point.

        •  Jesus! Pretty flimsy, but at least you offered (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          something.  It has always stymied me.  What do you say to a nonsequiteur (spelling).

          Cats are better than therapy, and I'm a therapist.

          by Smoh on Thu Mar 22, 2012 at 11:34:00 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  No, I think that most homophobes are that way (3+ / 0-)

          because they're so closeted, they don't even know they're in the closet.  And if Gay Marriage is legal, they are terrified that... they might end up getting one themselves.  But if they're illegal, then they won't be tempted by all those other people getting them.

          That really is what drives the batshit insane social/religious issues conservative: the deep, abiding fear that somebody out there is actually enjoying themself.

          A really great tagline appearing here soon! Watch this space!

          by madhaus on Thu Mar 22, 2012 at 12:48:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  There is a con involved, (13+ / 0-)

        or an equivocation, or selfdelusion in the way the anti-gay side uses the term 'traditional marriage'.

        We're all supposed to assume, and most of us do so in good faith, that what they mean is a kind of marriage this is an inherently functional and a kind of ideal, just about perfected institution.  It's nonideological but gay people happen not fit into it.  In their minds it fits to a Divine Order, or the pseudo secular aspect of Divine Order they call 'natural law'.

        In practice, as it exists in fact in the 19th/20th/early 21st century West, 'traditional marriage' is not ideologically neutral.   As established it is/was permissive and highly protective of certain varieties of dysfunctional heterosexual unions.

        What the anti-marriage people see in gay marriage legalization is the permanent and indeniable and utterly domineering establishment of egalitarian partner marriage as the ideal.  They already hate that egalitarian partner marriage is the normal form among upper middle class liberal Americans and how pop culture has made it the aspired-to form among all the other classes.  

        What they are fighting for is retention of the dominance, legitimacy, and unofficial protections and privileging of complementarian/heirarchical partner marriage.  The power in society that props and upholds and advocates for this are the conservative churches.  

        So it comes down to why these people are so adamant about 'complementarian'/nonegalitarian marriage.   They have all kinds of talking points and arguments (procreation, 'natural',  natalism, etc), but you can eventually see past them to the common core.   Basically it's about marriages where one or both partners are dysfunctional- usually in some psychiatrically identifiable way.   The disorders involved are mostly still socially normalized- things like unrecognized ADHD, OCD, milder types of manic depression, and anxiety disorders (which all blend into each other)- which means average people, especially those in more conservative and downscale locales, mostly don't distinguish them from normal range.

        These people make for marriages which are strained and unequal partnerships, and then families which are marginally functional.  They usually have conservative religion as a prop to hold on to.  As their condition settles into a rut they become afraid of feminism and divorce, of government (i.e. social workers and police coming into their homes and discovering abuse or neglect), of losing their religious group as support group, and of liberalism in American public life eroding away the social normalization of their particular dysfunctional  condition and its control and containment mechanisms.  They start to hate e.g. mainstream TV, which makes caricaturesque representations of their life situations and says they are kooks and deserve to be marginalized.  They go into the 'conservative bubble', a paranoid construct of a certain level of intellectual consistency that constructs walls around one's life that appear solid and closes out the dangerous Others.  

        Being paranoid and obsessive to various degrees, and in denial that they are the abnormal (or if they are, then their kind is worthy of special protections), they have a really hard time with gay people gaining equality and social normalization.  After all, in their worldview if homosexual sex acts and the way many homosexual people feel no shame about them isn't insanity and Morally Wrong, what is?   And gay people have been the historical shields and scapegoats they could find for their own lives and the messy sexual impulses they themselves have.  (Many people on the bipolar spectrum have hypersexual and extreme sexual disgust phases.  And the complex guilt and consequences of giving in to the hypersexual phase.  For those in denial or ignorance of their condition this leads, on the one hand, to puritanism.  This is also why such folks find it easy to think homosexuality is "a choice", i.e. hypersexuality (which they impute to everyone) not resisted and thus run amok.)

        In short, 'traditional marriage' is a construct behind which lies a dismal reality, yet those who live it are desperate to defend it because it does protect them and give them standing they would not otherwise have.

        And the real issue at bottom of the gay marriage argument is about sanity.  One side accepts gay people as essentially sane as a group and supports fully mainstreaming them (the liberal position), the other consists of people who recognize that they find themselves unable to coexist with this social fact and its consequences and stand to get marginalized, either as bigots or as mentally dysfunctional (the conservative position).

        The number of people who worried about coexisting with fully mainstreamed gay people is, happily, shrinking rather dramatically as they discover that the social marginalization that happens in such an environment is essentially all selfinflicted.  Normal/sane people discover that they care just as much or little about other people having gay sex and gay relationships as they do about other people having hetero sex and hetero relationships.  They stop having the anxiety and selective disgust the obsessives have.  

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