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View Diary: Trayvon Martin, White Denial and the Unacceptable Burden of Blackness in America (279 comments)

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  •  Phil's point seemed to me to be (8+ / 0-)

    "this diary isn't necessary here."

    I couldn't disagree more, and futhermore, note that it's always the same people who tend to make that argument around here.

    This comment is dedicated to my mellow Adept2U and his Uncle Marcus

    by mallyroyal on Thu Mar 22, 2012 at 11:36:49 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Ah, my reading was different (4+ / 0-)

      Just for reference:


      Has anyone on DKos disputed that Martin's death (8+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:LaEscapee, poligirl, NYFM, Avila, jhecht, pot, BoxNDox, Mindful Nature
      was a racist murder, period?

      If they have, I've not seen it. Maybe there's been the odd comment here and there, although I haven't noticed even that, but this awful-- if entirely typical--killing has been well-covered on DKos and there certainly has not been a major or consistent vein of denial running through the diaries and comments.

      The local and Florida state police? Ah, now you're talking. THEY are deep into denial... but I doubt many of them are Kossacks.

      This diary is preaching to the choir.

      My reading of this was that he was simply saying that Mr. Wise is somewhat wide of the mark, since there have been many diaries taking the exactly same positions and virtually no dissent on any of these points on these pages.  Mr. Wise however seems to be reacting to something he describes as:  
      please, let us have no more ignoble and dissembling rationalizations for Trayvon Martin's death and Zimmerman's killing of him.

      Problem being that there haven't been any of those on these pages.  Thus, the piece seems to be directed at the dailykos audience (since it is posted here), but talks about something that isn't going on here.

      I had to infer that he's talking about the wider world (of course), but that isn't immediately clear from the piece what he's referring to.

      in essense, I think phil is criticizing Tim for a) being kind of late to the party and b) criticzing kossacks based on something we are not actually saying.  In that sense, Tim's accusatory tone is fairly wide of the mark here.

      I don't think this is something that gets fully discussed even in fifty diaries on the topic.  I don't much care for Tim Wise on several counts, but that's my own taste, really.

      •  as should be obvious, I see "white denial" as a (9+ / 0-)

        problem of both the left and right.  in that sense it's certainly not wide of the mark, regardless if in THIS case, what with the youth's pristine reputation and the shooter's obvious wrongness, there's less of it than usual.

        we've gone down the "well maybe thats not racist" road over and over on this site.  from chimp cartoons to blackface to constant genital reference.  it's a problem that didn't die with "the purge."

        This comment is dedicated to my mellow Adept2U and his Uncle Marcus

        by mallyroyal on Thu Mar 22, 2012 at 11:53:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  rec removed (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mahakali overdrive, blueness

        it wasn't intentional.

      •  That's Not True (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        raina, Diogenes2008, mallyroyal

        Just yesterday I had a discussion with a Kossack who's primary argument was that same old racist trope that until Black folks stop committing crime (I'm saying it more bluntly than he did, but it is indeed what he said) we should be on examining and "fixing" why they commit crimes as much as discussing the psychological racial profiling that cost Trayvon Martin his life.

        This was not a discussion with a troll or a new Kossack.  This was a Kossack in good standing.  He simply refused to answer my question about why it was legitimate to even raise or discuss the issue of "the causes" of "Black criminality" (which even if you assume only 1 crime committed per perpetrator, an assumption that defies actual reality, still leaves 93% of all Black Americans completely innocent of any crime whatsoever).

        He simply refused to answer the question I posed to him about why it was even rational behavior (it isn't - it's racist behavior) to assume or want to discuss ANYTHING about Black people correlated with crime   when 93% of us have never committed one.  He refused to acknowledge the unconscious racism that even makes connecting Blacks and crime rational in American minds given the undeniable reality that only a handful of Black people even commit crime (and its a lot less than white folks, it's just that white folks get busted a lot less.)  Ultimately, he instead just said something about me being involved in "groups" here at DailyKOS (whatever the hell that means) as the reason he wasn't going to continue to discuss things.

        I've had quite a few of those crime discussions right here at DailyKOS within the context of Black people being killed.  So don't tell me that "there haven't been any ignoble and dissemblng rationalizations for Trayvron Martin's death."  There sure have been - just not direct ones.  

        And that is the ultimate power of institutionalized racism.  Even so-called liberals feel entitled not to listen to the truth when Black folks call them out and feel entitled to refuse to recognize racism IN THEMSELVES.

        Thus, the George Zimmerman's of the world.

        If you don't stand for something, you will go for anything. Visit Maat's Feather

        by shanikka on Fri Mar 23, 2012 at 05:12:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's a good point (0+ / 0-)

          I obviously didn't see the exchange you are talking about, but if you are characterizing it correctly (which I imagine you are) it would seem to me pretty offensive.  This point you make is utterly critical:

          He simply refused to answer the question I posed to him about why it was even rational behavior (it isn't - it's racist behavior) to assume or want to discuss ANYTHING about Black people correlated with crime   when 93% of us have never committed one.
          Even if all but 1% of people with curly hair and middle toes longer than than their big toes (like me!) committed crimes, sweeping all such people up with the "criminal" label would be wrong to the 1% who aren't ciminal.  It is not o.k. to judge people for the bad acts of others who happen to look like them.

          And yes, that's the heart of the racism that killed Trayvon Martin.  So, if there are people really dealing in this kind of group based/race based/category based thinking, then I'd agree that they are at least tangentially rationalizing this murder, even if tangentially.  And yeah, they probably fail to see the connection.  I can certainly envision that.  

          I just haven't seen any such comments and the rec list has been filled with diary after diary of outpouring of rage about this, filled with like minded comments, which is what I was going by.  Certainly, I think a huge majority of people on this site are pretty clear about the fact that this was a racist murder that has its origins in the prejudiced (which I use to describe the mindset of judging individuals based on waht group they are perceived to be in) attitudes of racists and to top it off the unbelievably racist response of the police (there's a teaching moment!).

          My overreaction here was really rooted in my initial feeling that given the large scale outpouring here, Tim's comments seemed to be something of a slap in the face to the community that has been very much in line with Tim's thinking on this problem.  As has been pointed out to me on at least three different grounds, it isn't reasonable to read it that way.

          Long story short, I'm not going to tell you that there aren't people making such rationalizations!  :)

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