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  •  You do realize that the rush toward gun control (6+ / 0-)

    in the 1960s was as a reaction to the Black Panthers, right? And that the restrictions that crept in during the 19th century a reaction to the idea of freed slaves with guns?

    Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

    by Robobagpiper on Fri Mar 23, 2012 at 07:35:21 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Man, you guys are in a flop sweat. (4+ / 0-)

      The black panthers wanted to arm themselves, so they said, to defend themselves against racist whites.   Unless you're saying that gun rights are wonderful because they graciously allowed Traynor to arm himself against a racist killer absolved by a racist police department and that's the best of all possible worlds......

      Romney is campaigning to be President SuperBain; his cure is to cut wages, end pensions, let companies go bankrupt, and let the assets of production go dark or be sold to China. He really thinks thats the best of all possible Americas.

      by Inland on Fri Mar 23, 2012 at 07:41:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Indeed they did - and California in particular (5+ / 0-)

        rushed a bunch of gun laws to try to prevent from doing so.

        Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

        by Robobagpiper on Fri Mar 23, 2012 at 07:50:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, if only Traynor had armed himself. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Iberian, ChurchofBruce

          Then he would have been able to defend himself against a racist police department.  Good call.

          Romney is campaigning to be President SuperBain; his cure is to cut wages, end pensions, let companies go bankrupt, and let the assets of production go dark or be sold to China. He really thinks thats the best of all possible Americas.

          by Inland on Fri Mar 23, 2012 at 07:53:01 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Actually, he could have claimed self-defense (5+ / 0-)

            under "stand your ground", and the police would have had to show probable cause that the self-defense was unlawful before they could arrest or prosecute him, which might have saved him from being hauled into an interrogation room, told he didn't need to be Mirandized because they were just "trying to get the truth" and that he wasn't a suspect, and hectored into giving his "side of the story" until he said something that could be used against him in court.

            "Stand your ground" and other justified use of force laws aren't about the conflict between you and your attacker. It's about the conflict between you and the state once it's time to sort out the mess.

            That's the part you simply aren't getting.

            Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

            by Robobagpiper on Fri Mar 23, 2012 at 08:05:52 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  That's why the law killed Traynor. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ehrenfeucht games
              "Stand your ground" and other justified use of force laws aren't about the conflict between you and your attacker. It's about the conflict between you and the state once it's time to sort out the mess.
              The point of requiring retreat was so that someone woulnd't end up dead, thereby requiring the law to "sort out the mess" of a dead kid.  Which is only a mess and needs sorting out because the law makes it an arguable question over whether the killing was justiifed.

              Maybe, just maybe, it's better to have people back off and not have a homicide and resutling "mess".   This law takes a schoolyard morality of "why should I leave, I'll look like a pussy, he's the prick" and makes it a matter of violence.  And before you say "citation", you have a case right in front of you.

              Romney is campaigning to be President SuperBain; his cure is to cut wages, end pensions, let companies go bankrupt, and let the assets of production go dark or be sold to China. He really thinks thats the best of all possible Americas.

              by Inland on Fri Mar 23, 2012 at 08:28:55 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  And requiring retreat presumes that the needs (7+ / 0-)

                of the attacker are superior to those of the defender; in that the onus is on the defender to quickly determine if escape is possible before turning to force, not on the attacker to not be attacking in the first place.

                The notion that the legal responsibility for preventing such a homicide falls even significantly on a legitimate defender, and not entirely on the attacker, is perverse.

                Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

                by Robobagpiper on Fri Mar 23, 2012 at 08:51:33 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Christ, that's ugly. Thanks for nothing. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ehrenfeucht games, blindcynic

                  It doesn't.  It presumes that retreat keeps any confrontation from escalating.  Who is the big pussy and who deserves to be where is "the mess" that can be straightened out later by the law.   But once someone's dead, it's not a mess that can be straightened out.  Someone's already dead.

                  In the case before you, the sensible law would have required Zimmerman to let the police come and determine who had the right to the sidewalk.

                  But you say, what the law should do is decide who was right after the parties fight it out over the sidewalk, or bar, or girl, or wahtever.  With the expected casualties, because the right to stand one's ground only counts if you're the armed one....and I don't even have to look to see who's reccing your obscene comments.

                  Romney is campaigning to be President SuperBain; his cure is to cut wages, end pensions, let companies go bankrupt, and let the assets of production go dark or be sold to China. He really thinks thats the best of all possible Americas.

                  by Inland on Fri Mar 23, 2012 at 11:25:17 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Exactly! (0+ / 0-)
                The point of requiring retreat was so that someone woulnd't end up dead, thereby requiring the law to "sort out the mess" of a dead kid.  Which is only a mess and needs sorting out because the law makes it an arguable question over whether the killing was justiifed.

                "If I can't dance, then I don't want to be in your revolution"--Emma Goldman

                by ehrenfeucht games on Fri Mar 23, 2012 at 03:42:11 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Actually, he would've been carrying illegally sinc (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              PavePusher

              he is a minor.

              So, do you advocate lowering the CCW permit age restrictions?

              And a national campaign for AA's to begin obtaining CCW's so that they can better protect themselves?

              •  Point taken, though the method of defense isn't (4+ / 0-)

                specified. And certainly would have protected him had he wrested the firearm from Zimmerman.

                I'm all for minorities becoming active in their self-defense, same as anyone else.

                Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

                by Robobagpiper on Fri Mar 23, 2012 at 08:46:28 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Well, since he wasn't of legal age to carry in FL, (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            theatre goon, KVoimakas

            or pretty much any other state... No, not so much.  That may be a deficiency of the law worth re-examining.

    •  Reference citations please. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PsychoSavannah

      The finest and highest attribute of wealth is the ability to accomplish significant directed good.

      by Boris49 on Fri Mar 23, 2012 at 07:41:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Sounds good. National campaign to register as (0+ / 0-)

      many AA's as possible for CCW and instititue "unofficial" neighborhood watch programs in all communities.

      New restrictions would then become very popular...

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