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View Diary: Black Shooter of White Victim in Florida Claimed "Stand Your Ground", still Arrested & Tried (95 comments)

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  •  except I don't even agree with "sock in the nose." (27+ / 0-)

    why any violence?
    And why oh why is it against the rules to ride skateboards in the basketball court but it's not against the rules to carry a gun to the basketball court to complain about it?

    We're not perfect, but they're nuts! -- Barney Frank

    by Tamar on Thu Mar 22, 2012 at 02:30:51 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Some people just don't control themselves (23+ / 0-)

      When some people get angry, and shouting doesn't get it done, they lash out.

      One of the more compelling arguments for handgun laws is that the decision tree between "mad enough to lash out" and the time it takes to kill somebody is about 1-2 seconds with a gun....

      whereas with fists, it is hard, physical work, usually requiring repeated blows and/or grappling etc.  

      Even a knife is a lot more work than a gun.  (This happens less with long-arms which aren't likely to be carried anywhere except when being used as a tool, as in hunting or target shooting.  And people tend to be less verbally intense when they're arguing with a guy carrying an obvious shotgun)

      People who translate an argument into physically lashing out shouldn't be carrying guns.

      Police get some training.  Armed security guards get a little training.  Soldiers get training.  All of these are to deal with the fact that they might get emotional while carrying guns that are part of their everyday job.   (all of the above lose control sometimes too.  But less than they would without the training)

      This is why most neighborhood watch and nearly all security companies do NOT carry guns, and have rules to observe/report/call the cops rather than getting personally involved.   The licensing to carry a gun for a security guard requires actual training, usually a permit and even then, the guard really isn't supposed to ever draw the gun, Hollywood notwithstanding.  It's there more to be visible and change behaviors of people observing the guard than to actually be used.

      •  My brother-in-law lost his job as a security guard (15+ / 0-)

        for chasing and tackling a grab-and-run shoplifter to the ground.   Even that much intervention was against the security company's policy.  He was a young marine just back from Gulf War I at the time, and pretty keyed up.  

        "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

        by lgmcp on Thu Mar 22, 2012 at 02:49:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Right (22+ / 0-)

          Security guards aren't cops.    This is one reason ex-cops and ex-soldiers actually are not necessarily the best guard material.  What they really like is somebody mature and calm, who notices things.   Mostly though, a security company will hire anyone without a criminal record who shows up on time reliably...if they follow the rules.

          Chasing down a criminal and tackling them opens up the Security company to all kinds of legal risks for the physical assault done by their guy, not to mention possible medical costs and liability if the person he tackles pulls a knife or gun or is just some kind of martial arts expert and injures or kills the guard.

          If you pay attention during the training, you know that

          1.  Your salary is being paid by insurance companies, and most of what you are there for is to spot things like fires,  safety hazards and doors propped open by employees.

          2.  If you actually spot something illegal or dangerous happening your job is to let your dispatcher know. "Observe and Report".  They will call the cops, who are trained to deal with it (and make a hell of a lot more money, plus generally have good medical benefits).   Police and firefighters do respond very promptly when a dispatcher calls them in.  

          You don't even give aid to injury until you call it in.  (then you can, in the case of injury, to the limits of what any citizen can do)

          3.  You are given a uniform and a badge so people know that the property is being watched.  This deters a lot of crime and vandalism.   We did get the rudiments of what a gun-trained guard is supposed to do, it includes things like unloading your gun if you see a mob approaching to prevent it from being used against you.  Real gun certification is a big deal, and more like what cop training is, but you still aren't really supposed to ever even draw the weapon.  

          4.  Your health and safety is as important as that of any employee on the ground you're defending, and more important than the property.   You have to be alive to report what you see, and also, quite frankly, nobody wants to pay your medical bills.   Security guards are supposed to make insurance rates go DOWN.  That's why they're paid peanuts, they're paid only out of the rate drop for having them vs not having them.

      •  very well thought out. Thank you! (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        raincrow, lgmcp, MKSinSA

        We're not perfect, but they're nuts! -- Barney Frank

        by Tamar on Thu Mar 22, 2012 at 02:50:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  They want all of the Perks and No Responsiblity (6+ / 0-)

        People who insist on the right to carry a concealed weapon should be held responsible for firing a gun. Having the ability to instantly kill someone on the street is a god-like power and with it should come a heavy responsibility. The burden of proving that it was justified should always fall on the shooter.

        The Florida law is completely backwards. In the absence of witnesses and evidence to the contrary, it should always be presumed that the shooting was not justified. If someone doesn't want that level of responsibility then they should leave their gun at home. In states that don't allow concealed weapons it is a some much easier. Any time somebody is shot outside a residence or place of employment by a civilian, it is almost certain that some sort of crime has been committed.

    •  Guns don't kill people (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      davidseth, Iberian, splintersawry, Tamar

      skateboards kill people!

      Er... uh... something like that.

      "Do what you can with what you have where you are." - Teddy Roosevelt

      by Andrew C White on Thu Mar 22, 2012 at 03:43:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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