Skip to main content

View Diary: Smearing Trayvon Martin: The True Lie that Black Men Commit More Crime than Whites (278 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  True Lies, Yet Again (15+ / 0-)

    Here's another way of looking at your data:

    In 2010, according to the FBI 5,770 Black persons were accused of murder (not convicted, mind you, since the FBI data reflects only arrest data, and not guilty, mind you, because a lot of folks' cases have now proven that innocent people are convicted of murder all the time).  
    That same year, there were 42,020,743 Black people living in the United States.

    That means that a single person's odds -- of any race -- of encountering a Black person who will kill them, even if I assume most favorably to your argument that every person accused of murder in 2010 was in fact guilty or convicted (not the same thing, as noted above) is 1:7,282.  Put another way, white folks who insist that there is something to be worried about when it comes to Black folks are basing their fears on something that only 1 out 7,281 different Black people they ever encounter might ever do to them in any given year.

    Of course, most whites in this country don't encounter that many different different Black folks in a day, a week, or a month - and in many places, they don't encounter that many Black folks in a year.   Doesn't stop most from treating the few they do encounter, especially young Black males, like shit anyway.

    Now that's before we take into account that of those 5,770 arrestees for murder, some will be completely innocent of the crime (even if they convicted - the Innocence Project has been doing yeoman's work in proving that point, not that folks who use FBI statistics to prejudge criminal risk based on race ever notice.)  That's before we take into account that in most cases, murder is an intra-, not inter-, racial crime, such that of the 3,327 whites who were murdered in 2010, only 447 of them were killed by Black people.  And before we take into account that just under 1/2 of all murders are committed by people who are either family members, friends or acquaintances of the victim.  

    All the above reduce even further the actual odds of any white person being murdered by any Black person EVER to the point where one has to wonder how white folks who even spend time thinking about this possibility walk out of the house every day, that's how racially paranoid it is.

    And it's before we take into account that there were actually, in 2010, only 447 whites were alleged to have been murdered by Black folks, making the actual odds of being a white person killed (or alleged to have been killed) by a Black person in 2010 to have been 1:94,006.

    So given all of the above even it is true that young Black men between the ages of 13-29 are accused of murder more often than young white men (raising the aggregate statistic so much that it does superficially appear like "more Blacks" kill people -- but not by much) would you mind telling me why it is rational to make any racial assumption about Blacks and murder that ascribes the issue to race?

    If you or anyone else can explain to me why it is anything but racist paranoia for whites to spend a nanosecond fearing anyone Black given those statistics I'm all ears.

    By your reasoning (since, after all, you brought the statistics up), God save us all if we see a white person over the age of 29 walking down the street because whites commit more murders over that age than Black people - and after the age of 34 commit more murders than ANYONE else combined according to your own source of data)  The only age group of Black people accused of more murders than whites are ages 13-29.  They were 62.6% of the Black people accused of murdering anyone.  

    Now I could play with the FBI statistics you rely upon all day long (if I didn't have to work for a living, anyhow) and come up with all sorts of other "data-supported" that could lead me to ascribe a whole host of deviant criminality to white people  (such as, for example, the data that suggests that you should NEVER let a white man near your child because they are odds-on favorites to molest them or kill them - by a wide margin.)     Imagine for just a moment if the world took those same FBI statistics (where the FBI even bothers to keep race data, and it should tell you something that for many violent crimes other than murder you have to a lot more work to find it) and applied them to prejudging white people we encounter, or used them to determine whether any individual white person is "suspicious".  After all, when it comes to murder most whites who kill people don't even have youthful ignorance as an excuse for killing someone (unlike most black folks accused of murder, since just under 2/3 of all Black folks arrested for murder are under the age of 20).  

    Imagining should lead an intelligent person to only one rational conclusion - the entire business is irrational.  I used to hope for that day, when folks would just be fair, and rational.  But I am increasingly convinced that it will never happen.  That is because IME one thing that folks like you who keep pulling up FBI statistics to justify racial profiling against Black folks are great at is pointing out how you're all individuals so we can't apply any group lessons we've learned about racism when we are observing what you focus on, or the arguments you make, trying to justify it being OK to see Black people and white people differently when it comes to crime.  

    If you don't stand for something, you will go for anything. Visit Maat's Feather

    by shanikka on Thu Mar 29, 2012 at 03:05:55 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

      •  Anytime (5+ / 0-)

        Your diary was excellent and it should have been food for thought.  Instead, the same old same old.  Few things irritate me as much as white liberals (those who claim to be our friends, mind you, unlike the "real racists") who trot out the same racist tropes about Blacks and crime based upon IMO not accidentally reported crime statistics involving a comparative handful of white people who have been harmed by Black people.  Not to mention the friends that have convinced themselves that their unfortunate victimization by someone Black MUST be have something to do with the race of the perpetrator, such that it's OK for them to henceforth be worried about other Black people having nothing to do with them, or the crime committed against them.  If these fears were in another context we'd recognize this type of thinking for the PTSD that it is, an illness that can be treated.  Instead, folks defend that type of thinking as "justified" -- and all of us Black folks but especially our sons pay for it.

        If you don't stand for something, you will go for anything. Visit Maat's Feather

        by shanikka on Thu Mar 29, 2012 at 04:41:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I would say your response to the commenter (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dr Swig Mcjigger

      is more than a little rude.  I've seen this behavior from you before so I'm no longer surprised by it.  
      But to correct your soliloquy, you're conflating the FBI statistics with the probablity of a white person encountering a black male youth, a point of comparison made by only you, not the commenter.  Secondly, in your comparison, you do not attribute population density of AA people in places like Big Horn, WY as compared to places described by denise b.
      This is a topic of significant importance that has an opportunity to elucidate and educate.  I would hope you, and everyone else engaged, would treat it as such.

      Koch Industries, Inc: Quilted Northern, Angel Soft, Brawny, Sparkle, Soft 'n Gentle, Mardi Gras, Vanity Fair, Dixie

      by ChiTownDenny on Thu Mar 29, 2012 at 03:32:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And I Would Say (5+ / 0-)

        That I could care less what your opinion is about the tone of what I said.  I am quite direct, to be sure - but I do not think I was rude in any way.  Just thorough.

        Since my comment does not address the odds of a white person running into a "[B]lack male youth", I'm not sure what you're on about.  However, since you bring it up, if your odds of running into any unique Black person who might be a murderer-o-whites are around 1:7200 (see above) in the best of circumstances, surely the odds are a lot longer than that when you consider only young Black males (since they are but a subset of Black people.)

        But of course if you live in a community with  higher percentage of Black people, you have more chance of running into a Black person.  Still doesn't mean that the odds of any individual white person running into any individual Black murderer-to-be change a whit, though.  

        If you don't stand for something, you will go for anything. Visit Maat's Feather

        by shanikka on Thu Mar 29, 2012 at 04:27:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I appreciate that you cared enough to respond. LOL (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dr Swig Mcjigger

          As I indicated to you above, the application of your statistics is significantly flawed.  As such, your citing more statistics from the same flawed analysis doesn't serve as construsctive analysis.  I find it futile to continue this discussion with you.

          Koch Industries, Inc: Quilted Northern, Angel Soft, Brawny, Sparkle, Soft 'n Gentle, Mardi Gras, Vanity Fair, Dixie

          by ChiTownDenny on Thu Mar 29, 2012 at 04:50:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  OK (4+ / 0-)

            If it's flawed, spell it out.  In detail.  Your argument, unless I misinterpreted it, was that the more Black people you are around the more likely you are to be victimized by crime.  That argument is superficially correct in the sense that if your odds are 1:7280 Black people and you run into 15,000 unique Black people a day, or your odds of being a white victim of a Black murderer are 1:92,000 unique Black people, and you live somewhere where you actually encounter that number of unique Black people, you are twice as likely IF you are victimized to have your murderer be Black.  But it is not correct to say that the more Black people you encounter the more likely you are to be murdered, which you seem to be suggesting.  That's a whole lot of fail as a matter of logic.

            If you disagree, no worries.  But it would be good if you would spell out reasoning, based in some math including the rules of logic, not just emotion.  

            If you don't stand for something, you will go for anything. Visit Maat's Feather

            by shanikka on Thu Mar 29, 2012 at 05:03:14 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Left out a couple of words (4+ / 0-)

              Above should read:

              "That argument is superficially correct in the sense that if your odds of being a white murdered by a Black are 1:7280 unique Black people, and you run into 15,000 unique Black people, or your odds of being a white victim of a Black murderer are 1:92,000 unique Black people, and you live somewhere where you actually encounter twice that number of unique Black people, you are twice as likely IF you are victimized AT ALL to have your murderer be Black."  

              If you don't stand for something, you will go for anything. Visit Maat's Feather

              by shanikka on Thu Mar 29, 2012 at 05:05:23 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  NO. I'm done with you. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                WereBear Walker

                You're not direct, or even blunt.  You're just offensive and rude.

                But it is not correct to say that the more Black people you encounter the more likely you are to be murdered, which you seem to be suggesting.
                I have made no such suggestions and what you are doing has been clearly addressed by Kos in his recent purge.  
                Done with you!

                Koch Industries, Inc: Quilted Northern, Angel Soft, Brawny, Sparkle, Soft 'n Gentle, Mardi Gras, Vanity Fair, Dixie

                by ChiTownDenny on Thu Mar 29, 2012 at 05:18:05 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  This is Now (3+ / 0-)

                  The second diary where you've stormed off in a huff instead of actually reading carefully and, most critically, responded to what was said instead of what you thought was being said.  I wasn't even the person you huffed off about the last time - quite the opposite, you thanked me for engaging with you.

                  Guess that was a short-lived appreciation.  /shrug

                  If you don't stand for something, you will go for anything. Visit Maat's Feather

                  by shanikka on Thu Mar 29, 2012 at 05:36:52 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  P.S. (3+ / 0-)

                    I'm confident that if you make a complaint to Markos, he will be happy to evaluate my postings on their merits as it relates to the behavior that resulted in folks being "purged" from the site.  

                    If you don't stand for something, you will go for anything. Visit Maat's Feather

                    by shanikka on Thu Mar 29, 2012 at 05:37:39 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  You really have a problem. (2+ / 0-)

                    Your comment thread is full of shit like this:

                    white liberals (those who claim to be our friends, mind you, unlike the "real racists")

                    Koch Industries, Inc: Quilted Northern, Angel Soft, Brawny, Sparkle, Soft 'n Gentle, Mardi Gras, Vanity Fair, Dixie

                    by ChiTownDenny on Thu Mar 29, 2012 at 05:45:22 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I know a lot of black people (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Larsstephens, Plantsmantx, luckydog

                      who agree. We all have a problem. lol

                      Racism is racism. White paternalism and privilege is not limited to the right.

                      Now report me. I'm rude.

                      "It's not enough to acknowledge privilege. You have to resist." -soothsayer

                      by GenXangster on Thu Mar 29, 2012 at 09:07:56 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You might call your actions rude. (0+ / 0-)

                        I would call them insignificant.  You see, there is an opportunity in this diary that you, and others, have squandered.  People on this site want to figure out what the facts are and then figure out how to address the facts.  Others are rude or boast of being rude.  They contribute nothing to the understanding of the facts.  And that makes you insignificant.  That also makes you culpable for the status quo.  Good job!

                        Koch Industries, Inc: Quilted Northern, Angel Soft, Brawny, Sparkle, Soft 'n Gentle, Mardi Gras, Vanity Fair, Dixie

                        by ChiTownDenny on Fri Mar 30, 2012 at 08:15:36 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Uh-huh. lol (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          luckydog

                          You have contributed nothing to my understanding of what the fuck's wrong with you except for the white paternalism you display towards blacks in this thread. Good job!

                          "It's not enough to acknowledge privilege. You have to resist." -soothsayer

                          by GenXangster on Fri Mar 30, 2012 at 08:18:15 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  We both have burdens to bear. (0+ / 0-)

                            Mine is living with white privilege in a downtown Chicago highrise with a doorman and a BMW in the garage.  Yours is living with the knowledge that young black males get shot and killed for being young black males and that you, and those like you, pick the wrong fights and with the wrong people.
                            Done.  EOM. See ya.

                            Koch Industries, Inc: Quilted Northern, Angel Soft, Brawny, Sparkle, Soft 'n Gentle, Mardi Gras, Vanity Fair, Dixie

                            by ChiTownDenny on Fri Mar 30, 2012 at 08:33:07 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  lol Uh-huh. People who (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            luckydog, starfu

                            think "those like me" pick fights with "the wrong people" are usually not the people they think they are and it gives them a sad and sometimes a big old mad to hve it pointed out to them. Nobody likes to be told they're lacking in racial understanding and being offensively paternalistic when they think they're infallible liberals.

                            It'll be okay. Sometimes people learn the hard way.

                            "It's not enough to acknowledge privilege. You have to resist." -soothsayer

                            by GenXangster on Fri Mar 30, 2012 at 08:55:37 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  what a burden (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            starfu, SethRightmer

                            "Mine is living with white privilege in a downtown Chicago highrise with a doorman and a BMW in the garage. "

                            must be stressful!

                          •  Translation: (0+ / 0-)

                            "I just lost this fight that I picked in a very humiliating way so I'm going to rub your face in my privilege."

                            Holy crap. Just... wow.

                          •  Envy is one of the "Seven Deadly Sins". (0+ / 0-)

                            You can refer to me as one of The Jones'.  LOL.  
                            Does the fact that I have worked to achieve a comfortable lifestyle make you uncomfortable?  That's your problem.  My problem is engaging in discourse with people who would dismiss my point of view, and even attack it, because they're unable to articulate and resort to attacks.  And yeah, I'm quite aware of the smack-down my comment represents.

                            Koch Industries, Inc: Quilted Northern, Angel Soft, Brawny, Sparkle, Soft 'n Gentle, Mardi Gras, Vanity Fair, Dixie

                            by ChiTownDenny on Fri Mar 30, 2012 at 11:29:53 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Projection (0+ / 0-)

                            You have not expressed yourself clearly. You have engaged in appeal to emotion. You have not presented facts. The folks you were responding to expressed themselves clearly and without undue emotional language.

                            Your point of view is simply your opinion, not inherently worthy of respect. As you do not present facts, but rely on emotion and attack, your opinions are not worthy of respect, period.

                            I have a comfortable lifestyle. I am not uncomfortable with your success, I am disgusted by how you represent your success and use it as a weapon to attack others. Your comment does not represent a smack down, but a disgusting stream of emotion laden, fact free verbal diarrhea.

                          •  How's that Cyndi Lauper lyric go? (0+ / 0-)

                            Something about seeing your true colors, shining through?

                    •  As a white guy let me just say (0+ / 0-)

                      Shut up please, you're making us look bad. I found Shanikka's logic, use of statistics and argumentation to be above reproach. I found your comments to be petty, fact-free and emotional. This is not about you and your hurt feelings. If you don't want to engage, then stop.

                      •  From one white guy to another, (0+ / 0-)

                        your race has no significance to me.  Your ignorance in thinking that it does, however, is significant.  

                        Koch Industries, Inc: Quilted Northern, Angel Soft, Brawny, Sparkle, Soft 'n Gentle, Mardi Gras, Vanity Fair, Dixie

                        by ChiTownDenny on Fri Mar 30, 2012 at 11:58:31 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  You have not illustrated my ignorance (0+ / 0-)

                          You state opinions as if they were facts. You appeal to emotion. You are haughty and egotistical. You, sir, disgust me and I do not consider you part of any "reality based community" as you obviously live in a fantasy world constructed out of ego and privilege.

                          Good day, sir.

                •  LOL! Rude? Where? (5+ / 0-)

                  Whatever. I'm probably being "rude" by wondering how the hell was shanikka being rude.

                  "It's not enough to acknowledge privilege. You have to resist." -soothsayer

                  by GenXangster on Thu Mar 29, 2012 at 09:05:35 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Not giving a white guy's emotion due deference (0+ / 0-)

                    Oops, ChiTown is a white guy so what I really meant to say was "factual presentation of very facty facts" not "fact free emotional melt down."

                    I believe the only correct response would have been to prostrate yourself before this shining luminary of post racial analysis and admit his innate superiority and the correctness of his interpretations. Anything less is rude, don't you know your place? /snark

                    As if I needed any more examples of how racism is still prevalent in our country, even among so called liberals. Still, I'm white. I don't have it thrust in my face every day like you probably do, and when I see something like this it IS shocking.

                    Seriously, who says things like this:

                    We both have burdens to bear. Mine is living with white privilege in a downtown Chicago highrise with a doorman and a BMW in the garage.  Yours is living with the knowledge that young black males get shot and killed for being young black males and that you, and those like you, pick the wrong fights and with the wrong people.
                    Done.  EOM. See ya.
                    People like you. Picking fights with "the wrong people" (your betters.)

                    Holy fuck. I'm sorry. I am so sorry.

    •  This does not match the stats... (0+ / 0-)
      (such as, for example, the data that suggests that you should NEVER let a white man near your child because they are odds-on favorites to molest them or kill them - by a wide margin.)
      Can you document your claim?  Here are the stats I found:  http://www.acf.hhs.gov/...

      They seem to indicate that child abuse is also disproportionately committed by blacks.

      This should not be a surprise - most of the factors that correlate with child abuse such as poverty, substance abuse, and broken homes are disproportionately present among black Americans.

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site