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View Diary: Sunday Train: HSR & the Slow Trains of No. California (131 comments)

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  •  I voted against, and I still don't see how the HSR (0+ / 0-)

    is ever going to pay for itself. Not even close.
    First, the competition, with infrastructure already built, goes about 500mph. Sure, there are a few things to slow you down, like security, and traffic to/from the airport, but you'll have some of that with HSR.
    Not only that, you will have to tear up a mile wide strip 600 to 700 miles long, (700sq miles of prime California real estate!).
    And to date, I haven't seen one reliable energy ROI analysis. Just saying Airplanes! pollute, won't do it.

    Anybody??

    " In England, any man who wears a sword and a wig is ashamed to be illiterate. I believe it is not so in France" Sam. Johnson, per Boswell

    by Mark B on Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 02:11:34 PM PDT

    •  Anybody what? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Woody, Radiowalla, raines

      It will pay its operating costs with a surplus ~ all main trunk bullet train corridors do, but its not clear what you mean by "pay for itself".

      If California's population grows as projected, its not competing against existing highway and airport capacity, but against not yet build highway and airport capacity that will cost more to build than the HSR will cost. Some people would consider picking the cheapest way to add required new transport capacity "paying for itself".

      The claim that the strip has to be "a mile wide" is an absurd exaggeration.  100 feet wide is more than enough for a two track HSR corridor, and 100 feet is less than 0.02 miles.

      What ROI analysis do you want? HSR being electric transport is pre-adatped to use sustainable power, and unlike new electric cars the vehicles are not idle 90% of the time. And the next electric jet airplane I see in operation will be the first.

      On a capacity basis, the HSR infrastructure has a lower energy cost than equivalent road infrastructure, and since unlike local mass transit you can scale service scheduling and frequency to available demand, operations have load factors that guarantee that they have a lower energy cost to move passengers around than current airplane and motor vehicle technology.

      Support Lesbian Creative Works with Yuri anime and manga from ALC Publishing

      by BruceMcF on Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 02:25:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  can you reference all that? Just saying that, (0+ / 0-)

        well the last two paragraphs doesn't make it so.

        As to the first sentence, you are aware the the Japanese bullet train system built up a $1T dollar deficit (reference: Nova) and almost sunk the whole country? They (the Japanese gov't) gave it away so that someone else would bear the operating costs. The J. taxpayer was saddled with the capital costs.

        I'm not sure how the future population of Cali will get around but, one option is that they might travel much less, but one thing absolutely req'd by HSR is a reliable 24/7 source of electricity most certainly not the type that one gets with wind or solar. Nuclear would work, but HSR is hard to sell already.

        Finally, if it can "pay for itself", why involve the taxpayer at all?
        A subject for my first diary, perhaps?

        " In England, any man who wears a sword and a wig is ashamed to be illiterate. I believe it is not so in France" Sam. Johnson, per Boswell

        by Mark B on Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 04:03:07 PM PDT

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        •  As I asked once ... (0+ / 0-)

          ... what do you mean by "pay for itself"? Do you mean operating surplus? Do you mean least cost means of providing the infrastructure? Do you mean cover all capital and operating costs out of farebox revenue, like the first French HSR corridor?

          As far as references, sure, I got them, and have linked to them previously in this series.

          I notice you have no reference for your claim that an HSR corridor is a mile wide, and that your "reference" for your claim regarding the Japanese bullet train is not actually usable in a form to allow your claim to be quickly confirmed or rejected, but is just "(ref: Nova)". Even O'Toole and the other Petroleum industry paid anti-rail advocates put actual references in their papers to allow any arbitrary page that they write to be debunked by anyone with the patience to follow up on their references.

          Support Lesbian Creative Works with Yuri anime and manga from ALC Publishing

          by BruceMcF on Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 04:30:57 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  ok it was $350Billion in 1987 (0+ / 0-)

            It was still a debt catastrophe.
            Still, I live in Cali, and the idea that you can build a downtown to downtown rail line strikes me as ludicrous. And, I don't see any environmental advantage, I still don't see any ridership (Stockton to Bakersfield is their proposed first line. I kid you not.) and you still haven't addressed the issue of power source.
            And, whether it's operating costs, infrastructure costs, capital costs or whatever, I still think if it would make money in any way, private capital would be all over it. Like they are when you want to build a new football or baseball stadium (hmm, yeah, they want humungous subsidies for that, too).
            And try a 100ft corridor in this country, where any anti-gov't crazy could stop a TGV for a month with one shot.

            " In England, any man who wears a sword and a wig is ashamed to be illiterate. I believe it is not so in France" Sam. Johnson, per Boswell

            by Mark B on Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 06:17:37 PM PDT

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          •  P.S. France has a higher population density, and t (0+ / 0-)

            he whole country is shorter than Cali. even in kilometers.

            Even the land of Descartes and Voltaire can make a mistake.................

            " In England, any man who wears a sword and a wig is ashamed to be illiterate. I believe it is not so in France" Sam. Johnson, per Boswell

            by Mark B on Mon Apr 02, 2012 at 06:26:09 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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