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View Diary: Contrary torture memo finally released by State Department. Bottom line: CIA committed war crimes (275 comments)

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  •  Do you believe that publicly available ... (5+ / 0-)

    ...executive orders of presidents are never given the wink-wink, nod-nod treatment? Do you believe that presidents issue secret executive orders?

    Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

    by Meteor Blades on Wed Apr 04, 2012 at 02:21:10 PM PDT

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    •  "Believe" (0+ / 0-)

      You have raised good questions Meteor Blades. And Yes I do believe that presidents issue secret executive orders. But, you this case, we will never be able to trust any president, at all. Are we to reject any possibility of any president telling us the truth when he/she issues a public executive order? To me, it is impossible to believe or not to believe something until we have proof. And that "proof" has to be confirmed. Like the Higgs Boson experiment results, it takes confirmed proof. So far I have not seen any undisputable evidence of prez continuing Bush admin's torture policies.

      During the Bush admin years however, "proof" was jumping at us from all over the place. Start with the Abu Gharib photos. Books written by innocents who were tortured and released afterwards.

      Has any victim written a torture memo that happened to him under Obama admin? Any pics, photos?

      These things cannot be hidden as we know from the Bush admin years.

      And no, I am not going to assume Obama must be torturing people secretly just because Bush did.

      "Corruptio Optimi Pessima" (Corruption of the best is the worst)

      by zenox on Wed Apr 04, 2012 at 02:57:04 PM PDT

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      •  For me, the key thing is not to accuse... (4+ / 0-)

        ...without evidence but to be skeptical.

        Although my grandfather talked politics when I was as young as I can remember, I didn't really start thinking about them until 1960 when the USSR shot down Francis Gary Powers in his U-2 spy plane. Eisenhower denied and denied before the Soviets pointed out that they had both the plane and the pilot. I learned that day to take things that presidents (and other leaders) say with a grain of salt, particularly in foreign affairs.

        Ike's successors, Democrats and Republicans alike, though Republicans have been far, far worse, have not persuaded me that my skepticism is misplaced.

        As for the Bush administration's leaks, it shouldn't be forgotten that it took a year before Abu Ghraib photos came to light. It took another year and a half before the secret prisons were exposed.  

        Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

        by Meteor Blades on Wed Apr 04, 2012 at 03:13:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I am on the same page with you, from the other (3+ / 0-)


          ...but I think I failed to communicate my meaning to you. Being skeptical is what I am also doing. The difference is this: I am saying we also do not have evidence (as of yet) to claim that president Obama is 'continuing and expanding Bush Admin's torture policies.'

          Your point: We don't have evidence that he isn't so we should be skeptical since there is a history of presidents not telling the truth.

          I agree. But that's only the half of the truth. The other half is:

          My point: We also don't have evidence that he is so we should be skeptical about that too. History, others did or Bush did, are not strong enough evidence proving Obama must also be doing it.  

          About the secret executive is a fact that presidents have acsess to national secrets you and I don't. If general public could access such secrets, the whole world would know about them. That's why we have representative government. But again, knowing that the prez have secret ex. order powers does not mean it is a proof he is continuing and expanding Bush torture policies.

          In conclusion, I am with you in being skeptical of what president might be doing, but as you see, there is the other side of that skepticism which means we cannot claim for sure he is doing something, without proper evidence.

          I have challenged the comments on this thread for that reason. They are making broad base claims without having any evidence or proof.

          "Corruptio Optimi Pessima" (Corruption of the best is the worst)

          by zenox on Wed Apr 04, 2012 at 04:06:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  All that is why I haven't taken a position... (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            just another vet, zenox, Eric Nelson

            ...on whether torture continues somewhere under U.S. control.  

            Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

            by Meteor Blades on Wed Apr 04, 2012 at 04:55:19 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  concur. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
            •  That is, my good fellow, is the fear below (0+ / 0-)

     our collective subconscious. And rightfully so, following the decade long nightmare we were all subjected to. I think we all carry the psychological scars from the trauma of horrors like Abu Gharib and the others. I cannot of course say to you that it is not happening somewhere under U.S. control, today. No one can, including the president. But I am not ready to throw the president under the bus-as the saying goes- claiming that he simply is no different than the Bush/Cheney admin when it comes to the torture policies, foreign and domestic. Somehow, I believe he is smarter than that.

              I hope and pray that is the case for the sake of our nation, all of us.

              One example on the positive side is Libya. I don't have the links now but I remember reading about how we found out, after Gaddafi's end, that under his regime, there were secret prisons in Libya, in which US terror suspects were being kept and tortured.

              Libya mission put and end to that. Doesn't mean all is well there today but at least what was happening before has changed.


              "Corruptio Optimi Pessima" (Corruption of the best is the worst)

              by zenox on Thu Apr 05, 2012 at 03:52:07 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  You're going to take the word of a bunch of... (0+ / 0-)

        terrorists and rely on a few fuzzy photos to determine that the Bush Administration engaged in a policy of torture, but interviews with detainees held under this Administration don't count? I'm lost.

    •  The claim at the top of this thread (0+ / 0-)

      is that Obama has continued and expanded Bush has done. That was a reckless and completely unsupportable claim and your comment does nothing in defense of  the claim.

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