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View Diary: Jenna Talackova, Naturally Born Women, and Donald Trump's Junk (81 comments)

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  •  Now that is a delicious question (2+ / 0-)
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    dov12348, rserven

    I often play around with in the bedroom.  But I think most people would say a man is someone with a penis and a woman is someone with a vagina.  Certainly for the standards of a beauty pageant, that should suffice.  And the lady in question has a vagina and she does not have a penis.  

    A more enlightened society would see that transsexuals are the gender that they know they are, no matter what sort of equipment they have under their underwear, and that's what I believe, and hopefully some day the law will follow.  But in the meantime, surely the standard definitions should apply?

    Complicating things are those of us who are a little bit of both.  :D  Our lives are a lot easier, no doubt.  No pesky legal problems, and discrimination can be avoided, but we are certainly sympathetic to those who were born with the wrong body altogether.

    •  If Mitt Romney... (0+ / 0-)

      ....then decided to exchange his penis for a vagina but otherwise remained exactly the same, he would be a woman and should be able to enter the beauty pageant as well?  Say, just as additional PR for the campaign.

      •  Beauty pageants are to judge beauty... (1+ / 0-)
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        cordgrass far as I can understand.  If someone thinks women are more beautiful than men, let them vote for the women.  But why not allow anyone to enter?

        Some people believe that the model for this was male:

        Would it be less beautiful if the model was male?

      •  Yes (2+ / 0-)
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        dov12348, rserven

        Although I don't think she would get very far.  :p

        Having gender reassignment surgery is not a trivial operation.  "Exchange" isn't the word I would choose.  Not everyone who gets it finds out afterwards that they were right, unfortunately, which is why counseling beforehand is so important.  Sometimes those that have it find that it had been primarily sexual all along, and without the strong sex drive the conviction is gone, and the person goes back to living life as a man.

        But true transsexuals are much happier afterwards.

        So in other words, if Mitt Romney had SRS and afterwards wanted to compete in a beauty pageant as Kitty Romney, then yes, she's a woman.  If he wasn't fully a woman inside, he wouldn't want to compete after SRS.

        Of course the weak side of my argument, to help your lack of coffee along, is transmen.  There is no effective surgery yet below the belt for them.

        My question for you--Buck Angel (NSFW google) I believe has a uterus and a "female brain" and all those processes and chromosomes that you say define a woman.  Should he be able to compete in a beauty pageant?

        •  A really fascinating conversation... (2+ / 0-)
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          cordgrass, rserven

          ...thank you.  And Robyn too.  I have to go offline for now and will try to get back in later.

          One thing - I am not trying to score points - I'm really trying to understand this and some of my positions aren't yet fully formed.  

        •  Sometimes it doesn't work out. (0+ / 0-)

          Should Buck be able to compete?  In a private pageant that's up to the owners.  And viewers and sponsors will react with their wallets.  It's common capitalism.

          If Mitt wasn't fully a woman inside he may want to compete anyway if he just felt he was beautiful and that the pageant might accept him that way.

          •  you are getting into more complicated issues (1+ / 0-)
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            Everything I have heard and read about Mike Penner has convinced me that he was not a transsexual, and that article clinched it for me.  He was a crossdresser.  That's the sort of man I like, someone who is both.

            Not to air the community's dirty laundry, but crossdressers generally have to deal with three difficult things.  First off, they are generally attracted to women, and women like me are pretty rare.  That's changing; women have a fluid sexuality and as society accepts crossdressing as more normal, a remarkable number of young women are open to it.

            I used to think crossdressing was a fetish, but after the last five years I'm convinced it isn't, except in a small number of cases where it is a specific article of women's clothing that does the trick.  On the other hand, it is sexual.  Not in a perverted way, but in the innocent way that a woman dresses extra nice on a day she knows she will meet a man she likes.  Crossdressers want to be seen as sexually attractive, by women.  

            And that leads to the second problem--passing.  Most crossdressers are obsessed with looking like women as much as possible.  Now if they are gay, that's a necessary thing.  But if they are straight, it's counterproductive.  I find the non-passable crossdresser more attractive than the one who looks exactly like a woman.  Crossdressers also have this odd narcissism; they sort of fall in love with their female selves.  Real transsexuals aren't like that.  So part of the urge to be passable is to be able to turn themselves on when they look in the mirror.  That drives them to female hormones and breast pumps and things, and getting obsessed with the idea of SRS, when that's not really what they want.

            Finally, a lot of trans women are huge bitches, sorry to say.  They are ashamed of crossdressers, think that crossdressers make it harder for the true trans to gain cultural acceptance (when the opposite is true), and oftentimes the most passable ones are the cruelest, making no attempt to hide the fact that as soon as their transitions are complete, they are going to ditch the community as fast as possible and leave their old life behind, living their new lives 100% female and hiding any ties to their male past.  Of course these women are the objects of hopeless envy by most crossdressers, and the CD's try to emulate them as much as possible.

            All those pressures combined to make Mike Penner dead.  I'm 110% certain that if his wife had been like me, that he'd still be alive.  The trans community pushed him too hard to be the poster girl for transsexuals, forced him into that box, when everything about him tells me he was a regular crossdresser.  

            Robyn's not going to recommend this post!  :D

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