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View Diary: President Obama offers an Easter and Passover greeting (137 comments)

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  •  Oh, is this post only open to fundamentalists (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Christin, Medium Head Boy

    and their apologist symapthizers? That's not at all what Jesus of Bethlehem would do, is it.

    •  I'm sorry, what? (6+ / 0-)

      "Fundamentalists and their apologist sympathizers"?

      Please do point out to me who in this thread is expressing fundamentalist beliefs, or "apologist sympathy" for fundamentalist beliefs.

      Of course, in order to point that out, you're going to have to demonstrate that the beliefs being expressed are, indeed, consistent with the historical movement of fundamentalist Christianity.

      Thus, any reference you present should also contain a direct citation of exactly which portion of The Fundamentals you're seeing expressed here. Please include a volume and page number. Direct quotations are preferable but not necessary.

      "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

      by JamesGG on Sat Apr 07, 2012 at 09:33:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  i am also sorry - what? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Medium Head Boy, PreciousLittle

        why not respond to the person PL was commenting too.
        who goes and tells others to get lost if they don't agree with an opinion.

        We consume the carcasses of creatures of like appetites, passions and organs with our own, and fill the slaughterhouses daily with screams of pain and fear. Robert Louis Stevenson

        by Christin on Sat Apr 07, 2012 at 09:44:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Because the person PL was responding to... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Observerinvancouver

          ...wasn't engaged in what appeared to me to be a rather blatant misuse of the word "Fundamentalist," insofar as PL appears to believe that anyone who has posted in this thread thus far is expressing beliefs that are indicative of connection with the historical religious movement of Fundamentalism.

          "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

          by JamesGG on Sat Apr 07, 2012 at 09:47:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  ahhhh. i see. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            PreciousLittle

            but me asking a question, gets this crap.
            to get lost.
               and a rec!
            brilliant.

            Please take your negativity somewhere else. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            NoFortunateSon

            We consume the carcasses of creatures of like appetites, passions and organs with our own, and fill the slaughterhouses daily with screams of pain and fear. Robert Louis Stevenson

            by Christin on Sat Apr 07, 2012 at 09:50:05 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I reply to what I reply to. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Observerinvancouver

              I'm under no obligation to reply or respond to every comment in this thread.

              I chose to respond to the particular comment to which I responded because (a) American religion happens to be an area of my expertise, and (b) I saw what appeared to me to be a rather significant error that attempted to apply a historically-inaccurate pejorative to comments within this thread.

              "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

              by JamesGG on Sat Apr 07, 2012 at 09:54:55 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  ahhh yes. the cherry pick defense. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                PreciousLittle

                of being just a bit hypocritical.  
                well played.
                i shall not let your insult slide!
                the insult that began this duel i care not!
                good day sir.
                  funny.

                american religion happens to be an area of expertise by my brother also.
                you two sound very much alike.
                  (not an insult.)

                We consume the carcasses of creatures of like appetites, passions and organs with our own, and fill the slaughterhouses daily with screams of pain and fear. Robert Louis Stevenson

                by Christin on Sat Apr 07, 2012 at 10:06:35 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Christin, I'm sorry you have family members (0+ / 0-)

              who think Christians are persecuted and that there's a war on religion.  I think it's forbearing of you to bother having anything to do with them.

              However, even though I'm an agnostic I find Pres. Obama's message inspiring.  There are many beautiful and positive lessons in Judaism and Christianity and, at the risk of sounding Panglossian, recognizing them is a boon.  

              We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. B. Franklin

              by Observerinvancouver on Sat Apr 07, 2012 at 12:21:44 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Obama said he believes in the RESURRECTION (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Christin

        of Jesus Christ from the dead.

        Evidently, you are completely unaware that the resurrection is a key tenet of fundamentalist Christianity. Otherwise, you would not have asked me to:

        demonstrate that the beliefs being expressed are, indeed, consistent with the historical movement of fundamentalist Christianity.
        Cripes, you even 'challenged' me with a link to The Fundamentals text you found at Wikipedia. Had you actually read the list of contents you would have seen the resurrection in Volume V. Here tis, sparky: Volume V: The Certainty and Importance of the Bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the Dead - R. A. Torrey.

        Maybe I'm amazed that you are so deeply invested in something you appear to know nothing about.

        •  I must say. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          PreciousLittle

          Joli coup!
            :-)

          We consume the carcasses of creatures of like appetites, passions and organs with our own, and fill the slaughterhouses daily with screams of pain and fear. Robert Louis Stevenson

          by Christin on Sat Apr 07, 2012 at 10:10:11 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  You missed my addendum comment below... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ravagerofworlds2

          ...which stated that you're also going to have to demonstrate that the beliefs you see being expressed are exclusive to the historical movement of Fundamentalism, rather than held in wider contexts by others in addition to Fundamentalists.

          Fundamentalists also believe that the sky is blue and that water is wet; that doesn't make those "fundamentalist" beliefs.

          The Resurrection is not in any way exclusive to fundamentalist belief; rather, it's a key tenet of Christian belief in general.

          At my Episcopal church, as in every other Episcopal church in the country, we say the Nicene Creed every week—which includes the line "on the third day He rose from the dead, in accordance with the Scriptures."

          We are not in any way, shape, or form linked to the historical movement known as Fundamentalism.

          Ergo, belief in the Resurrection is not sufficient evidence of Fundamentalist belief.

          So you have three choices:

          A. Show something else expressed within this thread that is indicative of fundamentalist belief (which will require both a page reference from The Fundamentals and a demonstration that the belief is unique to or in some other way indicative specifically of Fundamentalism);

          B. Declare all Episcopalians and other mainline Christians, who do believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ, to be Fundamentalists, which would not only be a rather massive historical error but would also be problematically dehumanizing, in your denying us the basic right to define ourselves and imposing your definition of who we are onto us; or

          C. Admit that you are unable to produce evidence to substantiate your claim that there are "fundamentalists and their apologist sympathizers" within this thread, and that in light of the lack of such evidence, you are retracting the claim.

          "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

          by JamesGG on Sat Apr 07, 2012 at 10:22:08 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Hold up on the witch hunt, JG. (0+ / 0-)

            I knew it wouldn't take long before you resorted to charging that we non-believers are persecuting and "dehumanizing" Christians on this thread.

            Belief in the resurrection is one of the fundamentals of fundamentalist Christianity as referenced in "The Fundamentals: A Testimony To The Truth" (Volume V). President Obama has said that he believes in the literal resurrection and, evidently, he also holds a literal belief in the biblical "miracles" of the bible.

            If that is not fundamentalism by your definition, please tell me, how would you define fundamentalism? That would be a good starting point.

            •  Fundamentalism is a distinct movement. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Observerinvancouver
              I knew it wouldn't take long before you resorted to charging that we non-believers are persecuting and "dehumanizing" Christians on this thread.
              Neither I nor my church are Fundamentalist; if you chose to label us as such, contrary to our express wishes, you would be objectifying us by denying our own subjectivity and agency to define who we are. The ability to define oneself is a basic human right.
              Belief in the resurrection is one of the fundamentals of fundamentalist Christianity as referenced in "The Fundamentals: A Testimony To The Truth" (Volume V). President Obama has said that he believes in the literal resurrection and, evidently, he also holds a literal belief in the biblical "miracles" of the bible.
              Those are also among the basic beliefs of non-fundamentalist Christianity, as expressed in the Nicene Creed which is recited at many mainline churches each and every week. So, again, you are forced to either define all Christians who recite the Nicene Creed as "fundamentalists," or admit that there is something more to the definition than that.
              If that is not fundamentalism by your definition, please tell me, how would you define fundamentalism? That would be a good starting point.
              Well, to start with, let's dispense with the notion that definitions of fundamentalism are somehow a personal thing, such that you could have a definition of fundamentalism that somehow includes all orthodox Christianity.

              Fundamentalism is a distinct historical, theological, and cultural movement; as George Marsden, who is recognized by scholars of American religion as one of the preeminent experts on American fundamentalism, states on page 3 of Fundamentalism and American Culture, "to understand fundamentalism we must also see it as a distinct version of evangelical Christianity uniquely shaped by the circumstances of America in the early twentieth century." In other words, not all Christianity, or even all evangelical Christianity, is Fundamentalism; Fundamentalism is a subset of Christianity as a whole.

              Theologically, Fundamentalism is defined by adherence to all of what they understand as the "fundamentals of the faith"—which start with the notion of the inerrancy of Scripture.

              Fundamentalism depends upon the proposition that the Bible is the inerrant word of God, which means that it is completely without error or contradiction and that it must be read literally. Thus, fundamentalism seeks to repeat without rhetoric what it perceives as God’s commonsensical, unmediated, and unembellished Word. (Barbara Biesecker-Mast, "Fundamental Gaffes," from Communication and Critical/Cultural Studies, vol. 4, no. 1 [2007]:98)
              In the disestablishment of nineteenth-century Evangelicalism into liberal and Fundamentalist factions, few issues were more important to the Fundamentalist self-identity than the belief in the inerrancy of the biblical literature. (James Davison Hunter, Evangelicalism: The Coming Generation: 20)
              From the basis of inerrancy/literalism come further theological commitments, including not only beliefs held by all orthodox Christians like the resurrection, but also things that aren't quite so universal, like six-day creationism, spiritual warfare, and premillennial dispensationalism—the latter of which is a view Marsden agrees is held by today's fundamentalists (Fundamentalism and American Culture, p. 5).

              Fundamentalism is also defined culturally by a general commitment to militancy and separatism. From Marsden's Understanding Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism:

              A more precise statement is that an American fundamentalist is an evangelical who is miltant in opposition to liberal theology in the churches or to changes in cultural values or mores, such as those associated with "secular humanism." In either the long or the short definitions, fundamentalists are a subtype of evangelicals and militancy is crucial to their outlook. Fundamentalists are not just religious conservatives, they are conservatives who are willing to take a stand and to fight. (1)
              Fundamentalism then has become a rather specific designation. Though outsiders to the movement sometimes use the term broadly to designate any militant conservative, those who call themselves fundamentalists are predominantly separatist Baptist dispensationalists. (4)
              Please do indicate where in this comment thread you see these particular tenets being expressed, such that they can be understood as distinct and clear references to the historical, theological, and cultural phenomenon of Protestant Fundamentalism, rather than to the basic tenets of faith held by all orthodox Christians.

              "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

              by JamesGG on Sat Apr 07, 2012 at 12:18:50 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Props for the complete, imho, rout. :) (0+ / 0-)

                P.S. Beautiful sig.  I just noticed it.  

                We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. B. Franklin

                by Observerinvancouver on Sat Apr 07, 2012 at 12:35:41 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  JG, at the risk of prolonging the discussion... (0+ / 0-)

                Would you explain for us how you define the difference between "Orthodox Christians" and "Fundamentalist Christians"? In other words, at what point does your "Orthodox Christian" cross over the line and become a "Fundamentalist Christian".

                You cited religious scholar George Marsden:

                Fundamentalism depends upon the proposition that the Bible is the inerrant word of God, which means that it is completely without error or contradiction and that it must be read literally.
                Doesn't the President believe that the bible is the "inerrant word of God"? Moreover, if the President believes the bible is accurate on the subject of Jesus being literally resurrected from the dead, what's your beef with six-day creationism?

                Marsden says American fundamentalists are "in opposition to liberal theology in the churches or to changes in cultural values or mores, such as those associated with secular humanism." Isn't the President's opposition to same-sex marriage based on his understanding of Christian doctrine?

                 

                •  Again, Fundamentalism is a distinct movement. (0+ / 0-)

                  It's not a catch-all for all orthodox Christianity, or even for all conservative Christianity.

                  Would you explain for us how you define the difference between "Orthodox Christians" and "Fundamentalist Christians"? In other words, at what point does your "Orthodox Christian" cross over the line and become a "Fundamentalist Christian".
                  When they take on the worldview and tenets of Fundamentalist epistemology, theology, and cultural thought.

                  It's not as if "orthodox" and "Fundamentalist" are two separate groups; Fundamentalists are a small subset of the larger set of orthodoxy. It is possible to be orthodox without being Fundamentalist, but it isn't possible to be Fundamentalist without being orthodox.

                  Orthodox Christianity is a broad movement, comprised of all who hold to (or would hold to, if they were creedal) the Nicene Creed; it includes Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, mainline Protestants, evangelicals, Anabaptists, and most other major Christian denominations (with the exception of Mormonism).

                  Fundamentalism is a subset of just one of the branches of orthodox Christianity, an extremely conservative version of evangelical Christianity.

                  Doesn't the President believe that the bible is the "inerrant word of God"? Moreover, if the President believes the bible is accurate on the subject of Jesus being literally resurrected from the dead, what's your beef with six-day creationism?
                  I haven't quizzed him specifically on the topic, but "inerrancy" has a very specific theological meaning; I'd be surprised if the President was an inerrantist, given his background in the theologically-liberal UCC, and his having never espoused things like six-day creationism.

                  There are many Christians who don't hold to inerrancy or six-day creationism, who do believe in a literal resurrection. Just because one believes that some things in the Bible are literally historical, does not mean that one must accept that all of them are.

                  Marsden says American fundamentalists are "in opposition to liberal theology in the churches or to changes in cultural values or mores, such as those associated with secular humanism." Isn't the President's opposition to same-sex marriage based on his understanding of Christian doctrine?
                  Again, there are many people who oppose same-sex marriage based on religious beliefs who do not hold to the whole of the Fundamentalist worldview.

                  I disagree with the President and his continuing opposition to same-sex marriage, in part based on my own religious worldview, but that doesn't mean that one of us is a Fundamentalist and the other of us is a liberal.

                  The Fundamentalist worldview goes much deeper than mere opposition to same-sex marriage; it involves resistance to just about all of the past 50 years of social progress, including feminism, increasing religious pluralism, and expansion of civil rights for LGBT people.

                  If the President were a Fundamentalist, he wouldn't have been a member of the UCC (a decidedly non-Fundamentalist denomination) and he wouldn't go to St. John's Episcopal when he does go to church here in DC. Given that separatism is a major tenet of the Fundamentalist worldview, no Fundamentalist would willingly subject him- or herself and his/her family to what Fundamentslists believe is "false doctrine."

                  "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

                  by JamesGG on Sat Apr 07, 2012 at 05:00:06 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Jaysus H. Christ on a cracker! If there's any (0+ / 0-)

              persecuting and dehumanizing going on here, it's not JamesGG doing it.

              We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. B. Franklin

              by Observerinvancouver on Sat Apr 07, 2012 at 12:30:22 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  It's a key component of Christianity, period (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Observerinvancouver

          ... and that's a bit of an understatement :-)

          Sarah Palin: The Palin plan is quite simple. My elderly mother (drily): It would have to be.

          by Juliann on Sat Apr 07, 2012 at 10:55:21 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Erm, I think believing in the Resurrection is the (0+ / 0-)

          basic tenet of every form of Christianity, not just fundamentalism.  

          We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. B. Franklin

          by Observerinvancouver on Sat Apr 07, 2012 at 12:25:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No, belief in the Resurrection is NOT a (0+ / 0-)

            "basic tenet of every form of Christianity". Where do you get your information?

            You must be altogether unacquainted with Liberal Christianity. It's only been around a couple of hundred years.

            •  I go to a church.... (0+ / 0-)

              ...that's liberal even for an Episcopal church—which makes us very, very liberal indeed.

              Each and every Sunday morning, we stand in the pews and read the Nicene Creed—which includes the statement that "We believe [...] after three days [Jesus] rose again, in accordance with the Scriptures," a clear statement of belief in the Resurrection.

              The Nicene Creed (or its theology, in non-creedal denominations) is a central tenet of every branch of orthodox Christianity—including the traditionally liberal denominations like the Episcopal Church and the United Methodist Church.

              "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

              by JamesGG on Sat Apr 07, 2012 at 05:08:48 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Oh, I forgot to add... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      grover, Observerinvancouver

      ...that you're also going to have to demonstrate that the beliefs you see being expressed are exclusive to the historical movement of Fundamentalism, rather than held in wider contexts by others in addition to Fundamentalists.

      "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

      by JamesGG on Sat Apr 07, 2012 at 09:43:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, because all religious people are fundies. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Juliann

      I seriously question the intelligence and sanity of the downers who rush the weekly radio address.

      •  bring on the insults. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Medium Head Boy, PreciousLittle

        why not?
        jesus would approve.

        I seriously question the intelligence and sanity of the downers

        You question their intelligence. And sanity.
        Meaning they are stupid an mentally unwell.
          Jesus would love this, for sure.

        We consume the carcasses of creatures of like appetites, passions and organs with our own, and fill the slaughterhouses daily with screams of pain and fear. Robert Louis Stevenson

        by Christin on Sat Apr 07, 2012 at 09:47:31 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  People self select for certain conversations (0+ / 0-)

        because they typically have an ideological impetus. Research has shown that those with a negative impulse are far more likely to participate than those who have a negative impulse (meta study here, but you need a subscription to get at the good stuff).

        Above Grecian mantles were chiseled these words... Know Thyself... Nothing in Excess... the pop philosophy of its day.

        by ravagerofworlds2 on Sat Apr 07, 2012 at 09:52:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  do you want me to overnight the shovel? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          PreciousLittle

          or you okay with two day?    

          We consume the carcasses of creatures of like appetites, passions and organs with our own, and fill the slaughterhouses daily with screams of pain and fear. Robert Louis Stevenson

          by Christin on Sat Apr 07, 2012 at 10:01:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And this is why Dailykos needs an Ignore feature (0+ / 0-)

            Please have a nice weekend. I will no longer respond to you.

            Above Grecian mantles were chiseled these words... Know Thyself... Nothing in Excess... the pop philosophy of its day.

            by ravagerofworlds2 on Sat Apr 07, 2012 at 10:07:37 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  :-) (0+ / 0-)

              awwwwwww.
              after all those insults...i get a please have a nice weekend.
              so very very sweet!

              We consume the carcasses of creatures of like appetites, passions and organs with our own, and fill the slaughterhouses daily with screams of pain and fear. Robert Louis Stevenson

              by Christin on Sat Apr 07, 2012 at 10:11:53 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  You appear negative. Here, take one of these (0+ / 0-)

      and call me in the morning.

      But in case you want to know what the Judeo-Christian wisdom is in this case;

      Proverbs 22:24-25

       24 Do not make friends with a hot-tempered person,
         do not associate with one easily angered,
      25 or you may learn their ways
         and get yourself ensnared.

      Above Grecian mantles were chiseled these words... Know Thyself... Nothing in Excess... the pop philosophy of its day.

      by ravagerofworlds2 on Sat Apr 07, 2012 at 09:45:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You appear to be ignorant. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        PreciousLittle

        so i guess we're even.
        and yes, quoting some words from a book which I know  is not based on facts, science, or reality.  because that makes your case.  
        (hint - we are not friends, so have no fear and be not afraid!)

        “You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.”
        ― Harlan Ellison

        We consume the carcasses of creatures of like appetites, passions and organs with our own, and fill the slaughterhouses daily with screams of pain and fear. Robert Louis Stevenson

        by Christin on Sat Apr 07, 2012 at 09:56:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  "Precious Little" indeed. nt (0+ / 0-)

      We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. B. Franklin

      by Observerinvancouver on Sat Apr 07, 2012 at 12:11:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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