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View Diary: Rick Warren not a fan of this whole Jesus thing (205 comments)

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  •  You should learn (1+ / 0-)
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    Palafox

    how and where the "no true Scotsman" fallacy applies, which exclusively to ad hoc rationalization.  The classic example is the Scotsman who thinks that a Scotsman would never be a sex offender, and when confronted with a counterexample makes the ad hoc rationalization that no true Scotsman would be a sex offender.

    Now if the same person were to reason that Lord Mountbatten is no Scotsman because no true Scotsman was ever born in England to parents of exclusively German ancestry, that would not be a case of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, even though he used exactly the same phrasing.  That's because the criteria of being born in Scotland or having Scottish parents is a reasonable definition of "Scotsman".

    Likewise, if you were to say that "no true liberal would have the goal of making the poor dependent on government programs," that would not be a case of "no true Scotsman" either, although a conservative may assert that fallacy in the claim because that's how he defines liberalism.

    A much more reasonable tack here is that Rick Warren is a hypocrite, something you can't claim if you consider indifference to the poor a defining characteristic of Christianity.

    I've lost my faith in nihilism

    by grumpynerd on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 07:13:17 PM PDT

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    •  Go by history and RW isn't unchristian in the (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dallasdoc

      least. Christ wasn't a Christian, he was a Jew and even he preached retribution. Christians, especially after about 200 ad are an entirely different can or worms.

      In short, the "no true Christian" fallacy is indeed what is at work when people make that pleading about guys like RW, or the Pope, or .....

      That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

      by enhydra lutris on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 08:36:12 PM PDT

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      •  Again (0+ / 0-)

        you are claiming the right to define what "Christian" means.  You can do that of course, but it's an ironic mirror of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.  

        There's nothing wrong with ginning up your own private lexicon, but you can't insist that conclusions I grant you under that lexicon apply outside of talking with you. This is precisely what Republicans do with the "socialist" label.  They use their own private definition then blur the lines between that and the historically accepted one.

        I've lost my faith in nihilism

        by grumpynerd on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 07:47:19 AM PDT

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        •  This isn't a discussion (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          terrypinder, enhydra lutris

          about who really is and is not a Christian.  This is a discussion about a worldly institution composed of a very large group of people that call themselves Christian that wield tremendous economic and political power and that are seriously screwing with the lives of others.  Your semantic gymnastics just muddy the issue and make it more difficult to respond to this very serious problem.  If you're a genuine Christian you would get over yourself, cease being defensive, and side with the oppressed in marginalized that are being attacked by these groups.  You wouldn't make it a discussion about yourself.

        •  In a word - wrong. No individual gets to (0+ / 0-)

          define christian for anybody other than themselves, neither you nor I; history does that.

          History tells us that Christ wasn't a christian. That name was and is applied to those who came after him and claimed to follow, interpret and or represent him. Those folks are a very mixed bag and RW is most definitely among them. Claiming otherwise is indeed a variant of the "No true Scotsman" fallacy.

          That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

          by enhydra lutris on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 09:50:54 AM PDT

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