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  •  A womans womb is her sovereign (6+ / 0-)

    territory, and she's got the right to abort anything trying to live in it if she chooses.

    That's my view, but it's certainly not the view of most.

    Most people don't think a freaky little tadpole with no brain is a Human Life.  That's why most people don't oppose first trimester abortion.

    Argue that it is, in fact, a human life and you argue that killing it is an act of homocide.

    Kos should start a PvP server for this game.

    by JesseCW on Sun Apr 15, 2012 at 07:45:55 AM PDT

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    •  You Didn't See Me (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Avila, SneakySnu, sockpuppet, chipmo

      Say anything about a woman's right to have an abortion, did you? So why would you respond to me with that argument.  I was raising a different issue.

      I don't agree with you that acknowledging that abortion terminates human life is saying that abortion is murder.  I do think, however, that this is the deepest fear of those who want to dehumanize fetuses; having to confront for themselves what it truly means to choose to end a human life.  

      And I say this as someone who is a believer in the necessity of the right to access legal abortion.  Always believed it, always will be.  I'm also not terrified to admit what it is, though - I had to answer that question for myself in my own heart when I had my own abortions decades ago now.  And then trust that God (in who I personally believe, as do most) would understand why, and forgive me.  For those women that don't believe in God that I know, it's been a similar process; just a different starting and ending point - themselves.

      As I said above, the right is using our own failure to think about this in the terms of the majority against us.  And winning.  Do we want to keep saying the same old same old unpersuasive stuff, just louder? Or do we want to try something different and maybe finally end this back and forth in terms of the law once and for all? I know what side I come down on.

      If you don't stand for something, you will go for anything. Visit Maat's Feather

      by shanikka on Sun Apr 15, 2012 at 10:35:09 AM PDT

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      •  I didn't say murder. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sockpuppet, Pandoras Box

        You're aware that murder and homicide are not synonyms.

        Please don't insult me again by implying that I don't.

        A undifferentiated lump of cells is not a human life.  

        The Right is using a lack of basic science education (which they perpetuate) and primitive superstition against us.  

        Agreeing that human life begins at conception is no way to defeat them.

        In fact, it's led to 30 years of gains on their part.  "Safe, legal, and rare" is a mantra that has helped them make abortion virtually unavailable to poor women in rural counties.

        Kos should start a PvP server for this game.

        by JesseCW on Sun Apr 15, 2012 at 10:43:57 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I Am (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Avila, chipmo

          But most folks don't think "homicide", either.  They think murder.  Not an unreasonable distinction in this context, IMO.  

          Undifferentiated cell stage for fetal development ends fairly early in the process, btw.  We'd actually be rolling the calendar back on the right if we were to use that as the lynchpin for determining human life vs. not.  After all, all major organs of the human body are created by week 10.

          As far as the rest, suffice it to say that I think you're wrong.  The left has never acknowledged that abortion terminates human life.  Quite the opposite - the movement has gone out of its way NOT to have to have that discussion.  Instead they've tried the poster child case approach to justifying abortion (rape and incest victims) then the my body my choice case, then back to the poster child case (but then adding the quality of life of "defective" children argument), then back to the "my body my choice" case but now with a twist of "it's just a piece of meat" and "it's a parasite" and "pregnancy is dangerous" thrown in for good measure.

          So how can you argue that an approach has led to failure when it hasn't even been tried?

          If you don't stand for something, you will go for anything. Visit Maat's Feather

          by shanikka on Sun Apr 15, 2012 at 10:51:11 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  it says a lot about you that you think you (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        need forgiveness for your abortions.  I wonder how much that guilt drives your discussion about this issue.

        So - what if we say it terminates a human life.  How do we win with THAT?

        In fact, how do we win at all?  There is no discussion of abortion issues happening at the citizen's level before laws are passed.  These legislators don't give a flying fuck what people thing - they are just passing laws without our input.

        •  What, Exactly (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          Does it "say about me?" Spell it out.  I'm genuinely curious to hear what you think you know.

          I've proposed ways to win that would in fact move the majority of women closer together in a way that the pro-choice movement has utterly failed to do because it's leaders (and many folks on the hard left) are busy running away from the hard stuff that needs to be talked about and pretending that there is something wrong with the thinking/intellect of anyone who doesn't agree with that.  

          If you don't stand for something, you will go for anything. Visit Maat's Feather

          by shanikka on Sun Apr 15, 2012 at 01:19:49 PM PDT

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          •  I don't "think I know" anything.. (0+ / 0-)

            I can read what you wrote.

            It says that you think abortion is basically immoral... that you believe it to be an act that requires forgiveness

            and it makes it interesting that you still, from that perspective, argue for pro-choice.

            I think it says that you struggle with this issue internally more than some.

            Why are you so sure that we are all running away from "the hard stuff?"

            •  I Didn't Say (1+ / 0-)
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              Abortion was immoral.  Nor did I say anything about "struggle".  I don't - I'm completely at peace with my decisions of the past.

              That's what you conclude based upon what I wrote.  Based upon your own way of seeing things.

              So........why don't you now take yourself out of your world view (that of someone who cannot imagine someone asking God for forgiveness after an abortion unless that woman feels abortion is immoral) and see if you can put on someone else's - while still leaving that woman pro-choice.

              When the majority of women can do that for each other, we will be a huge step forward in terms of actually having our majority mean something in terms of this particular cultural battle.

              If you don't stand for something, you will go for anything. Visit Maat's Feather

              by shanikka on Sun Apr 15, 2012 at 02:07:30 PM PDT

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              •  why would you ask forgiveness (0+ / 0-)

                if you didn't feel it was immoral?

                I really cannot understand that

                help me understand

                •  Part of the Reason (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Pandoras Box, chipmo

                  That I believe that the movement is a failure is that too few are really interested in doing the hard work of talking to and LISTENING TO lots of women not like themselves on this issue.  So, respectfully, I'm going to just say that go out into the communities not like your own and talk to a few hundred women, including a whole bunch of Black women over the age of 30 or so.  Make sure that they are not the type of women that spend their time debating these issues on the Internet or some political forum.

                  You'll get it.  I'm sure of that.  If you listen, rather than talk, especially.

                  If you don't stand for something, you will go for anything. Visit Maat's Feather

                  by shanikka on Sun Apr 15, 2012 at 04:49:07 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

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