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View Diary: We Are a Vision of the Future, On the Black Bloc: Part I (343 comments)

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  •  well it's entertaining reading (12+ / 0-)
    And that was when it got drilled into my head: Anarchists get shit done.
    What, exactly, have anarchists gotten done? You talk about 1999. It's worse now than ever.

    This is a serious question. How will anarchism work? How will it succeed in changing things?

    I use the word advisedly. Anarchism, in the sense of no government, no rulers, is a nice ideal that I believe in. I'm using the word in the sense you present it, though. As a tactic rather than an end.

    •  They shut down the WTO conference (6+ / 0-)

      In that specific case.

      There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

      by AoT on Thu May 03, 2012 at 10:14:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  yeah, and totally stopped globalization (10+ / 0-)

        in its tracks!

        Or, maybe they just inconvenienced a few elites and alienated a whole bunch more regular folks.

        "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

        by Geekesque on Thu May 03, 2012 at 10:36:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  so what? (7+ / 0-)

        They didn't stop any of the trade deals from happening, they didn't stop the WTO from destroying the economies of the countries they invaded, they inconvenienced some conference goers, that's not getting shit done.

        As a nation, the U.S. consumes the most hot dogs per capita. So you'd be wise to never underestimate our powers of denial.

        by jbou on Thu May 03, 2012 at 10:39:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No, they did more tha inconvenience (11+ / 0-)

          They Made the world aware that there was resistance to neoliberalism even in the US.

          There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

          by AoT on Thu May 03, 2012 at 10:43:12 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yo AoT: I gotta' question: (8+ / 0-)

            What do you think would have happened if, instead of smashing windows and so on, the entire crowd had used peaceful sit-in and blockade tactics?

            For example: pick strategic intersections and have large crowds sit down in them to block all traffic.  For example form into a long line that could wind its way through a number of blocks downtown, a continuous line along many blocks in a row, holding signs and chanting, so the whole place reverberated with noise?  

            Or for example just surround the WTO conference site and then sit down in place?  

            And when the cops moved in, just gotten up and walked with them to the vans and so on?  

            What do you think would have happened if those were the tactics and everyone stuck to them?  

            "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

            by G2geek on Thu May 03, 2012 at 11:10:53 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Um, you clearly aren't aware of what actually (12+ / 0-)

              happened at the WTO in Seattle.  Because the "other black bloc" that I was talking about in the diary did exactly what you suggested.  And that's what shut down the conference, not the people in downtown Seattle breaking windows.

              There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

              by AoT on Thu May 03, 2012 at 11:20:37 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  OK, well I thought you were talking about... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Deep Texan, Sylv

                ... the stuff that the MSM broadcast endlessly, window smashing and so on.  

                This is a story that needs to be told: that mass nonviolent tactics succeeded in various ways, and what those were.  Because in that case, those tactics can & should be extended and used elsewhere.

                Though also, how would you deal with the issue of the MSM always focusing on stuff like window smashing?

                "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                by G2geek on Fri May 04, 2012 at 02:24:32 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  1999 WTO Seattle anarchist documentary (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                AoT

                "Breaking the Spell"

                The link is to a page which has the text below, and from which the documentary can be downloaded for free (using r click, "save as") / 703 Mb

                Breaking the Spell is a 1999 anarchist documentary, directed by Tim Lewis, Tim Ream, and Sir Chuck A. Rock.

                Using amateur camera footage recorded by protesters at the scene of the 1999 WTO riots, it documents the riot from the perspective of the anarchists, their opinions of fellow protesters, local politicians, and includes footage which aired nationally on 60 Minutes

                Resistance Is Fertile - Occupy

                by Sean X on Fri May 04, 2012 at 06:53:44 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  We *did* that. We got fucking gassed. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              G2geek, chipmo, Calvino Partigiani

              Your vote is your consent.

              by JesseCW on Fri May 04, 2012 at 01:45:09 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  but the story the media told.... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Deep Texan, SneakySnu

                ... and the story that most of America got shoved in their faces, was about people smashing windows.

                Compare to UC Davis, where the story the media told, and most of America got, was about peaceful protesters getting pepper-sprayed, which caused a decent chunk of the public to take the protesters' side.  

                Usually when peaceful protesters are attacked, much of the public sides with the protesters.  Sure, nothing will change the minds of the 25% of America who are hard core religious right and plutocrats.  But it's about reaching the undecided to get them to decide, and reaching the uncommitted to get them to commit.  The rest proceeds from there.

                What do you think it's going to take to do that?

                "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                by G2geek on Fri May 04, 2012 at 02:30:48 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  The coverage at Davis wasn't negative because (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  G2geek, glitterscale, chipmo

                  the movement was not yet taken seriously.

                  Had it already been seen as a serious threat, the coverage would have been about the poor threatened officers who barely escaped the seated demonstrators with their lives, thanks to their valorous deployment of pepper spray.

                  It's the MSM that decides whether it's a peaceful protest.  Iranians hurling molotovs are "peaceful protesters", while Palestinians simply refusing to move are terrorists.

                  It's not reality that shapes that narrative, it's editorial policy.

                  Your vote is your consent.

                  by JesseCW on Fri May 04, 2012 at 04:45:14 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Do you seriously think that any media outlet other (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Deep Texan

                    than Faux News accepts marching orders like this?

                    I've seen some pretty pathetic journalism from the MSM, but OUR CAMERAS ARE RUNNING.

                    The problem with the media isn't bias, it's laziness. The media will tell our side of the story if we've got our cameras running.

                    THAT'S how UC Davis happened.If the MSM had no cameras there - and hint: they didn't - and there was no counter-footage from 50 angles showing exactly what happened, then "the cops barely escaped with their lives" WOULD have been the story.

                    The first thing a black block action does is disable cameras by smearing vaseline on the lenses.

                    When the MSM's laziness and habit of believing police reports is confronted with incontrovertible video evidence already widely distributed via youtube, they'll tell OUR side of the story.

                    Except for fox, which does exactly what you described.

                    An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail.

                    by OllieGarkey on Fri May 04, 2012 at 06:22:08 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  yo Ollie: peacemaking here. and about cameras... (0+ / 0-)

                      My criticisms of Black Bloc are similar to yours, but AoT did this diary as the beginning of an outreach for peace.

                      So a bunch of us here have been trying to respond in kind.  Making peace here is the first step toward making peace on a wider scale.  

                      That doesn't mean no mutual criticism, it just means doing it in accord with our best practices rather than our worst.  This is a real chance to make change.  

                      So you have a very helpful point of criticism there about Black Bloc:  smearing vaseline on camera lenses.  OK, so let's see what AoT says about it.  I'm willing to bet we can all agree that disabling live reporting by fellow protesters is not an acceptable tactic and we'll all cooperate to put a stop to that.

                      "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                      by G2geek on Fri May 04, 2012 at 06:44:51 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I'll try and tone it down. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        G2geek

                        I didn't mean to be antagonistic. I'll stop. TY.

                        An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail.

                        by OllieGarkey on Fri May 04, 2012 at 07:36:44 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  thanks majorly. (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          OllieGarkey, WB Reeves

                          There's a lot of good strong criticism being raised on all sides of these issues right now.  JesseCW, speaking more on the anarchist side, just pointed out a situation where a group of protesters in LA got sprayed by the police, despite being totally peaceful.  I'd never heard of that instance before but it should be discussed further.

                          One of the issues we should hope to address here is what to do when police go out of control.  We need to figure out some creative ways to get those police departments to tone it down and not go overboard.   A unified movement is a very powerful bargaining position for that and other purposes.

                          Peace-
                          -G2G

                          "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                          by G2geek on Fri May 04, 2012 at 07:52:42 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  You do know why Donahue was canceled, right? (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      chipmo, SouthernLiberalinMD

                      Yes.

                      They do accept marching orders.  Just like that.  Fox is only unique in that its owner doesn't try to hide what he's doing.

                      They barely reported on the brutality at the last RNC Convention, when their own reporters where being kicked around.

                      It's not laziness - it's self interest.  

                      Or did you think GE bought a news channel to further the public good?

                      I honestly don't know where you're having these experiences.  This "smearing vaseline on lenses" bit isn't something I've ever encountered, in multiple cities up and down the West Coast over a 15 year period at dozens of protests and demonstrations at which Black Bloc tactics have been used.

                      Your vote is your consent.

                      by JesseCW on Fri May 04, 2012 at 07:07:05 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Couple of points: (0+ / 0-)

                        Phil Donahue Cancelled: 2003
                        Creation of YouTube: 2005

                        People are becoming the media.

                        Now, the mainstream media isn't going to always do what we want them to do. You can't just hand them the footage on a platter, you have to build outrage around it, get blogs and twitter campaigning on it, get it going viral, get people calling and writing angrily about it, and that's a whole hell of a lot of work.

                        It takes a large and effective organization to achieve these goals.

                        Eventually, it's my hope that this wont be the case.

                        As for your question, I refer you to two videos posted in my diary. In one, you'll see the black block disabling cameras, in the other, you'll see people who Tim and I knew and interacted with who were anarchists physically assaulting him because he walked by them with a live stream.

                        I'm not going to ask you to explain these actions, but we have constant, near constant problems with black bloc folks who attack other protesters and live-streamers. And they may not be authentically black block, but they sure are dressing the part.

                        Which brings me back to the point I made in my diary: these tactics don't work. I'm going to wait for AoT to finish his story before I respond fully.

                        An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail.

                        by OllieGarkey on Fri May 04, 2012 at 07:41:53 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  The creation of YouTube doesn't have anything (0+ / 0-)

                          to do with the fact that corporate media promotes a pro-corporate view point and that these conglomerates use their "news" outlets to further their economic self interest.

                          They will not present a narrative they believe will threaten those interests.  They've demonstrated that again and again.

                          I've run into my share of self-obsessed "Live Streamers" who routinely shoot people who have asked them repeatedly to knock it off.  I can understand people getting pissed about, although that doesn't justify assaulting anyone.

                          It also doesn't support an argument that kids with masks wearing black are a cancer that needs to be excised.

                          Your vote is your consent.

                          by JesseCW on Fri May 04, 2012 at 07:53:41 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  "asked them repeatedly to knock it off..." (0+ / 0-)
                            I've run into my share of self-obsessed "Live Streamers" who routinely shoot people who have asked them repeatedly to knock it off.  I can understand people getting pissed about, although that doesn't justify assaulting anyone.
                            Should anyone participating in a public event have the right to refuse to be photographed?  When the police try to thwart media coverage of their actions, we call it an outrage.  
                      •  The disempowerment of the individual journalist (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        OllieGarkey

                        in favor of the megalopoly that employs him/her is a terrible thing.

                        Being ignored is the difference between being a one percenter and an American.--sweeper

                        by SouthernLiberalinMD on Fri May 04, 2012 at 01:04:10 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  You're aware how much footage there (0+ / 0-)

                      is of NYPD groping breasts, neh?

                      Dozens of incidents?

                      Show me the coverage.  Show me how the MSM runs with  it, if the footage is handed to them on a platter.

                      Your vote is your consent.

                      by JesseCW on Fri May 04, 2012 at 07:09:48 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  MSNBC didn't cover Occupy Wall St (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      joanneleon, Sagebrush Bob

                      for 2 weeks, not until the first pepper spray incident.  It was a complete media wide blackout.

                      Michael Moore was on Rachel Maddow 6 days in and brought it up tangentially.  She looked at her shoes and proceeded to other topics.

                      Callers called into Ed Schultz's radio show asking them to cover it and were met with silence.

                      The Facebook pages of O'Donnell, Maddow, and Schultz were PLASTERED with people asking them "When are you going to cover Occupy Wall St?"  Those questions were ignored by O'Donnell and Maddow, and the admin of Schultz's page belligerently blocked people for asking too many questions.

                      On 9/23 I called Bloomberg's office directly and asked why the police were interfering with OWS on Wall Street and cordoning them off.  The office claimed no knowledge of any such thing.

                      It's so sad that people think Fox is the only one in the game.  They are ALL bit players on the stage.

                      The bourgeoisie had better watch out for me, all throughout this so called nation. We don't want your filthy money, we don't need your innocent bloodshed, we just want to end your world. ~H.R.

                      by chipmo on Fri May 04, 2012 at 07:36:20 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  That's true (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        chipmo

                        I saw a tsunami of twitter messages asking them to cover OWS in the beginning.  I haven't looked but I bet there was another storm of them when Maddow didn't even mention the May Day protests.

                        Yes, they do follow orders.


                        "Justice is a commodity"

                        by joanneleon on Fri May 04, 2012 at 08:04:19 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Well, so much for that whole... (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        netop, OllieGarkey

                        ..."non-violence" thing:

                        To our enemies: if we won't hesitate to directly confront hundreds of cops and to destroy property, what makes you think we hold the lens of your camera to be sacred? You want to preserve your four thousand dollar camera to watch us break everything else? We are not doing this for you, and this is not a game. You clearly do not understand that there is no exception. We feel nothing but contempt for you cowardly spectators.

                        You'd better watch your necks next time.

                  •  interesting point: (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Deep Texan

                    Had Davis been seen as a threat etc., and "peaceful Iranian protesters" throwing Molotovs:

                    It's up to us to deal with the reality on the ground, which includes understanding how the MSM work and how they misrepresent every damn thing, and then it's up to us to manipulate them at will so our message gets out as intended.  The Yippies in the 1960s - 1980s were masters of this kind of thing, and today it's all about the Yes Men.  

                    Really: what matters isn't what types of protest make us feel good, what matters is what types of protest get the message across.  And if that means making the kinds of efforts the Yes Men make, or doing something else, then that's what we have to do.

                    Tactics need to evolve over time.  Evolve or perish.

                    "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                    by G2geek on Fri May 04, 2012 at 06:30:08 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Media problems. (0+ / 0-)

                Beware the Big Yellow Propaganda Machine.

                And no, I'm not making a racist comment about Communist China.  I'm talking about yellow journalism.

                Being ignored is the difference between being a one percenter and an American.--sweeper

                by SouthernLiberalinMD on Fri May 04, 2012 at 01:03:12 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  BTW, I studied the neoprimitivists in depth. (5+ / 0-)

            I tried reading Kaczynski's stuff when he was in the news, but (even regardless of my opinions about his tactics) found it to be obscure and not particularly lucid or original.

            But a couple of years ago I spent a few months studying the current anarcho-primitivists and neo-primitivists in depth.  

            I read Jason Godesky's stuff, all of it from his Thirty Theses to a bunch of more obscure stuff he published.  He struck me as a very smart guy with a lot of interesting ideas, well-written and well thought-out.  

            I hung out on a couple of boards where these folks hang out, got into some lengthy conversations in email with a few of them, and was generally impressed by their intelligence and dedication.

            More about which in my next comment below.

            "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

            by G2geek on Thu May 03, 2012 at 11:25:54 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  There was like three paragraphs of Kaczynski's (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Urizen, JesseCW, Yasuragi, G2geek, chipmo

              that almost made sense and some small group of people grabbed on to it and pretended like it was the most important thing in the world.  Primitivism became the "big thing" in anarchism be no one could bear to tell the primitivists that they didn't make any sense.  Mainly because they always insisted that metaphors were the problem.  WTF?

              There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

              by AoT on Thu May 03, 2012 at 11:41:10 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  i'm back, sorry for delay; so about primitivism... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Yasuragi, chipmo

                ... some of the neo-primitivists do make sense, here I'm thinking of Godesky and the people associated with him, and that whole part of the scene.

                Here's all of Godesky's stuff:

                http://theanarchistlibrary.org/...

                Here's the blog where Godesky & his people hung out:

                http://rewild.info/...

                There are links at the top of the blog to his Thirty Theses in another location, and then a bunch of chat and comments and discussion.  There are also some links in mouse-overs of pictures and so on.  

                He seems to be less publicly active now, but there may still be ways to reach him.

                I also spent time hanging out on neoprimitivist sites and got into some very interesting conversations with people there.  One of the things I found was that the people I ran across were always nonviolent, which came as a surprise to me.  One of them wrote about going to an anarchist conference but being turned off by people there who were espousing hatreds: his vision of anarchism was about building liberated places in wild nature where people could live as they did centuries ago or longer.  

                Some of these folks take anarchism to include respect for the autonomy of nature as a living force, which meshes with their intent to live like hunter-gatherers.  Many of them were working on developing the core skill-sets such as hunting and tanning and making fire with native tools, and building expedient shelter and generally living in the wild.  

                I've been a city-rat for too long for my own good, but I was really surprised by what these folks were doing and accomplishing, and I respect what they're doing and their degree of commitment even though it doesn't generalize to the urban areas.  If they succeed at their plans, they could constitute a viable community during times when more complex societal infrastructure is breaking.  

                So even in my own science-oriented paradigm, what they are doing is worthwhile in a darwinian sense, as another form of human adaptation that may have value in the continuity of our species at some point in the foreseeable future.  

                I'd be interested to know what you think of Godesky and the folks associated with him.  And if you want me to dig up my notes to find some links to some of the other folks, say the word.  

                "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                by G2geek on Fri May 04, 2012 at 02:54:22 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  I've taken some ideas from Primitivism (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                joe wobblie, G2geek

                It may make sense to consider it a branch of Surrealism.  Or maybe the other way around...

                More literally, the idea of having 'primitive skills' fits the DIY ethic, which is about individual empowerment- Anarchist as anything.

                •  hi, good seeing you here. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  joe wobblie

                  You & I have had our fights in the past, but per AoT and the spirit of his diaries, this is time to make peace and build collective strength.  So here's to being open to hear more of what you have to say.

                  "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                  by G2geek on Fri May 04, 2012 at 08:57:43 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  They brought a great deal of attention to the (7+ / 0-)

          WTO - who most people had never heard of.

          Today the phrase 1% is everywhere too, and that's due to them also.

          Does that mean they 'won'? I dunno.

        •  They're the only reason the WTO (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          G2geek, chipmo

          got any coverage at all in the first place.

          Your vote is your consent.

          by JesseCW on Fri May 04, 2012 at 01:44:40 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  you have a point there and it's conclusive. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Yasuragi, chipmo

            I agree: the stuff that went on in the streets, was the only reason the WTO got any coverage.  

            That was a successful outcome: putting the public spotlight on the WTO.  

            "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

            by G2geek on Fri May 04, 2012 at 03:11:55 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Actually, those trade deals haven't happened (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          joe wobblie

          The WTO hasn't struck a deal since 2001.

      •  this is a helpful dialog. (4+ / 0-)

        I don't want to see you banned, because you're willing to stick your neck out on a ferociously hot topic, and this conversation needs to occur.  

        I can't rec stuff that may violate TOS, but none the less this needs to be seen and discussed.

        "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

        by G2geek on Thu May 03, 2012 at 11:00:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  changed my mind about that... tipped & recced. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Yasuragi, chipmo

          See my other comment about this upthread.  In short, I decided it's tips & recs for AoT, because even though he supports tactics that aren't nonviolent, what he's actually doing here is making peace, and that's an action that speaks loud & clear.

          "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

          by G2geek on Fri May 04, 2012 at 03:13:56 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  All I would ask from those using black bloc tactic (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT, Sagebrush Bob

        is please, analyze what you're doing tactically and then come to me and show me the justification.  If it's a matter of tactics, what are you trying to accomplish, and are you accomplishing it?

        The problem--or my big problem--with the anarchist vs anti-anarchist debate, and the black bloc vs the non-black bloc debate, is that everyone keeps framing it as "tactics" vs "morality."  That prevents the discussion of "diverse tactics" as tactics.

        To me, as, I guess, a non-radical, what is important is whether my means suit my ends.  Is breaking a window down at Wells Fargo in Wheaton going to damage Wells Fargo, break them up into smaller banks, or at least make them stop doing horrible things to the average Joe (such as getting him thrown out of his house or making money off of putting him in prison)/  Is it going to do anything much to Wells Fargo at all?

        I get that not all anarchists, nor even all using black bloc tactics, are "breaking windows."  But those who are are causing a serious problem.  For one thing, they're giving cover to some of the worst elements among the cops.

        I get that primitivists maybe are the real problem here.  But IMO, whoever is using these dumb tactics that look like simple vandalism needs to stop. Just b/c tactics are diverse doesn't mean all of them are automatically good.

        Being ignored is the difference between being a one percenter and an American.--sweeper

        by SouthernLiberalinMD on Fri May 04, 2012 at 01:01:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  well (5+ / 0-)
      What, exactly, have anarchists gotten done?
      They created some jobs for insurance adjustors. And the attendant trickle down.
    •  Also, I'm glad it was entertaining reading. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      G2geek, chipmo

      I hope that's enough to get people to listen to the story I have to tell because it is important.

      There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

      by AoT on Thu May 03, 2012 at 10:21:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You took the words out of my mouth n/t (0+ / 0-)

      Patriot: the person who can holler the loudest without knowing what he is hollering about. Mark Twain

      by Deathtongue on Fri May 04, 2012 at 12:12:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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