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View Diary: Rep. Virginia Foxx has 'little tolerance' for student loans (270 comments)

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  •  Public Universities have increased their prices (15+ / 0-)

    The right-wingers don't want to spend as much on universities and K-12 because they spend so much on prisons and welfare programs for business.

    The GOP is the party of mammon. They mock what Jesus taught.

    by freelunch on Sat Apr 14, 2012 at 07:13:02 AM PDT

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    •  But they don't cost $200000/year (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CTMET, Odysseus

      ...And while they do cost in the neighborhood of $80K/year if you count 4 years of dorm life, you're not supposed to put the entire cost of the degree on credit.  You're supposed to take out just enough loans that you can pay the rest through work, grants and personal savings.

      In that respect, I think this quote is being misinterpreted:  she doesn't have "little tolerance" for student loans, but little tolerance for unnecessarily large ones.

      Linking to a news article is journalism in the same sense that putting a Big Mac on a paper plate is cooking.

      by Caj on Sat Apr 14, 2012 at 07:37:32 AM PDT

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      •  Sorry Caj, yes she does, as do most Republicans. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        expatjourno, sethtriggs
      •  You're assuming degree (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        NWTerriD, expatjourno, sethtriggs

        If you just want a BA from a public university, in some states you can get away with $80K for the total cost (tuition, fees, books, room/board). But what about if the profession requires a masters degree? Or perhaps extended graduate work - say for medicine or law. That's going to up the cost and I think the chances of graduation diminish greatly for any student trying to go to a competitive law or medical school if they have to work during their studies.

        I disagree that her quote is being misinterpreted. She's comparing her experience in 1961 from UC to what students go through today. It's not a valid comparison.

        Imagination is more important than knowledge. Albert Einstein

        by michael in chicago on Sat Apr 14, 2012 at 07:58:26 AM PDT

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        •  asdf (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Odysseus
          If you just want a BA from a public university, in some states you can get away with $80K for the total cost (tuition, fees, books, room/board).
          In most states you can easily get away with far less.   For example, why are you including four years of room and board?  Room and board is usually way more expensive than living in town, and it's voluntary except maybe for the first year.

          In NY state, 80K will get you a complete full ride to one of the best public universities in the state, and you can easily make it 60K if you just bother to room with some friends after the first year.

          But what about if the profession requires a masters degree?
          If you think about this, you should see that it still won't cost you anywhere near $200,000.

          A master's degree is typically 2 more years, with higher tuition costs (e.g. $9000/year versus $7000/year) and no requirement to live in the dorms.

          Or perhaps extended graduate work - say for medicine or law.
          If we're going to talk about med school or law school, then we're no longer talking about the cost of "college," or people who take out giant loans for college.  Rep. Foxx was clearly talking about the cost of college.

          Linking to a news article is journalism in the same sense that putting a Big Mac on a paper plate is cooking.

          by Caj on Sat Apr 14, 2012 at 08:25:10 AM PDT

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          •  Not to mention doing two years at community (0+ / 0-)

            college first or going some place local.

            The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy;the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness

            by CTMET on Sat Apr 14, 2012 at 08:33:02 AM PDT

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          •  Depends upon your state and aspirations (0+ / 0-)

            Here in Illinois the base tuition alone is $11,600/year for residents at U of I. Illinois State is not much better at $394/semester hour. And that's just tuition at resident rates. The majority of students today take longer than four years to complete a degree and many programs require five years. With the inevitable yearly increases that's easily already $50K in nothing but tuition - no fees.

            If I go to one of these schools, then I'm not living with my parents anymore as both are significant drives from my home. Hence, college also costs room and board. So to attend college I'm going to be living on campus for at least a year, then I still have to pay rent and food even with roommates. But now I also have to pay for transportation as well.

            Let's just say we're talking cost of college because if I went to law school, then I'd be taking out huge student loans to pay for law school, which happens on a university campus and happens to earn a college degree. So what is that then - not college? Should the middle class and poor rule out these occupations because the cost of college for these professions is more than a liberal arts degree?

            And a college student can easily make $60K? Checked the economy lately? They're lucky if they can get a job after they have the degree. You ever made $60K working minimum wage? If you did then you're working nearly full time. You ever worked minimum wage 30-40 hours a week while in your last two years of architecture program or while student teaching? That will help graduation rates I'm sure. Ever worked minimum wage jobs while doing an internship and holding down a full course load?

            Or better yet, some kid from the suburbs of Chicago who gets accepted to Northwestern or University of Chicago and due to their parents middle-class income doesn't get a scholarship. They're clearly a fool to go there and should instead go to some small state school instead of being stupid and taking out loans to attend these elite schools and perhaps better themselves.

            Rep. Foxx was in essence saying that those not affluent enough should learn their place and stop trying to move out of their social class, and doing so from the out of touch perspective of someone who graduated from college in 1961 when college costs were much lower, the minimum wage was worth more, and college students could find jobs easily.

            Imagination is more important than knowledge. Albert Einstein

            by michael in chicago on Sat Apr 14, 2012 at 06:10:42 PM PDT

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            •  Transportation usually not a big deal (0+ / 0-)
              Hence, college also costs room and board. So to attend college I'm going to be living on campus for at least a year, then I still have to pay rent and food even with roommates. But now I also have to pay for transportation as well.
              I actually went to NIU, and never had to pay extra for transportation.  Like many universities NIU has a bus system that is free for students (actually paid out of your student fees,) and in any case off-campus apartments are only like a 10 minute walk from campus.
              And a college student can easily make $60K? Checked the economy lately? They're lucky if they can get a job after they have the degree.
              You seem to have completely misread what I wrote.  I said that you can bring an 80K college cost down to 60K by living off campus.

              You don't have to earn 60K a year to pay for a 60K tuition cost.   You can, for example, earn 10K a year, get 2K per year in Pell grants, and then take out $12,000 in loans.

              Linking to a news article is journalism in the same sense that putting a Big Mac on a paper plate is cooking.

              by Caj on Sat Apr 14, 2012 at 08:01:27 PM PDT

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              •  Yep (0+ / 0-)

                Misunderstood:

                You seem to have completely misread what I wrote.  I said that you can bring an 80K college cost down to 60K by living off campus.
                I read what you originally wrote as earn 60K over 4 years, or 15K a year. But I stand by my assertion that even this is hard to do today, especially in later years of a professional school and given the shortage of even minimum wage jobs - especially in a college town where thousands of kids are looking for one. 15K a year take home is basically full time hours a the minimum wage - assuming you find a job and don't take any vacation or sick days -  for four years. And let's remember that Republicans like Rep. Foxx do not support increasing the minimum wage which has fallen well behind inflation since she graduated in 1961.

                Getting a Pell grant will depend upon your family's income for at least the first couple years before you can prove financial independence. And lets not forget that Republicans like Rep. Foxx are in favor of cutting Pell grant funding which is less today than years ago.

                If you live off campus, that's great that NIU offers a bus. Not all do. Does it take you to work too? If one limits the job search to walkable distance or campus, then the odds of getting a job decrease significantly. This however falls under public transportation which Republicans have repeated supported cuts in funding for.

                Just to be clear, I worked my way through so I understand how hard it is. Yes one can reduce the cost by working. But you also increase the odds of not graduating and/or extending the time it takes to graduate, which then extends the debt as well.

                Imagination is more important than knowledge. Albert Einstein

                by michael in chicago on Sun Apr 15, 2012 at 09:50:31 AM PDT

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                •  asdf (0+ / 0-)
                  If you live off campus, that's great that NIU offers a bus. Not all do. Does it take you to work too?
                  Of course.  The Huskie bus line naturally has a few bus routes that go out to the hospital, out to the next town, and out to the grocery stores on the highway.  It is actually pretty typical of universities of this size:  where I work in NY, the university provides a bus system that also provides routes to adjoining towns, city hall, hospitals, main street, the mall etc.
                  If one limits the job search to walkable distance or campus, then the odds of getting a job decrease significantly.
                  I don't see why you think so.  Most of the shops and restaurants are near campus because that's where the business is.  Plus, a lot of part-time work is on campus, towit in the cafeteria, computer labs and so forth.  I worked multiple jobs through college and never had to walk off campus to do so.
                  This however falls under public transportation which Republicans have repeated supported cuts in funding for.
                  Regardless, those buses are there.

                  Linking to a news article is journalism in the same sense that putting a Big Mac on a paper plate is cooking.

                  by Caj on Sun Apr 15, 2012 at 08:28:05 PM PDT

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      •  If you are an out of state student they do (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        NWTerriD, Odysseus

        Most people don't have the option of moving anywhere in the country they want to pursue an education. If the state school in their area is not a good fit for them they have no choice but to go somewhere else, and this can cost upwards of $20k.

        Community colleges are a good idea if they have a transfer agreement with the university a person wants to go to, if not I don't think it is generally worth it b/c they change requirements so often that classes can be irrelevant if you aren't locked into a program's requirements.

        For the majority of the population way, way too much is made about grants, they don't exist for the average student in the numbers people say they do. If you work to pay for a place to live most of the grants that are income dependent will be taken away or reduced.

        •  How is it not a good fit? (0+ / 0-)

          In Kansas, K-State has great ag and business programs.

          KU has fantastic liberal arts/premed, etc

          Every other state has similar arrangements -- the bases should be pretty much covered by state schools.

          My issue is moing out of state or going Ivy League and racking up studets loans for a non-earning-guaranteed degree.

          The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. --George Orwell

          by jgkojak on Sat Apr 14, 2012 at 10:18:41 AM PDT

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          •  or even worse going non Ivy league and paying (0+ / 0-)

            just as much just to say you didn't go to a "State School".

            The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy;the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness

            by CTMET on Sat Apr 14, 2012 at 11:25:52 AM PDT

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          •  a "non-earning guaranteed degree"? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            sethtriggs

            what does that mean?

            no degree guarantees a job these days

            "Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D."
            Real journalists know that lies do not bring "balance" to truth! (h/t elwior)

            by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Apr 14, 2012 at 11:52:09 AM PDT

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            •  That's true, and jgkojak makes a good point (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              TrueBlueMajority

              there are a lot of good intrastate exchange programs. I looked into the western ones when I considered using them and they were not too helpful.

              Many I looked into did not accept transfer students, so students that started out at community colleges, or took classes for work (like I did) are not eligible, also a lot (but certainly not all) of them required  a high GPA, like 3.5+, which is not realistic for most students. There are also limits on the degree you can pursue to even get accepted into the exchange, but this generally wouldn't be a major problem because they didn't appear to be too restrictive

      •  and what job, pray tell, in this economy, (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        NWTerriD, wonderful world

        is an unskilled 18 year-old supposed to be working at, that will pay enough to cover the "difference"? in va, even the community colleges charge close to $300 per credit hour for classes, and eventually you need to go to a 4 year school to complete your batchelors. the state schools (because of the severe drop in state funding) have jacked up their tuition rates dramatically.

        our state legislature has fixed all of va's real problems, so they have free time on their hands, hands they insert into women's lady parts. oh, did i mention that va is totally controlled by rabid, extreme rightwingnut republicans? i didn't? well, it is. education isn't a real high priority item for them, they'd rather concentrate on whatever it is your doing in your own bedroom.

        •  Agree with you there are still lots of problems. (0+ / 0-)

          Another one are the for Profit colleges that charge a ton and suck up alot of the aid, and don't do a very good job.

          The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy;the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness

          by CTMET on Sat Apr 14, 2012 at 08:36:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  what if you have no savings? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        NWTerriD, sethtriggs
        But they don't cost...And while they do cost in the neighborhood of $80K/year if you count 4 years of dorm life, you're not supposed to put the entire cost of the degree on credit.  You're supposed to take out just enough loans that you can pay the rest through work, grants and personal savings.
        It certainly isn't the young persons fault if their parents failed to or were unable to save for their college. Further, how much can a young person save while in high school and/or earn while in college to offset the cost? Of course they could earn some money, but with a job that likely pays close to minimum wage and expenses on the order of 20k-80k a year, how much of a dent could they put in that?

        Simply living on minimum wage (ie room and board or an apartment and food) is difficult without even considering the additional tuition costs! Further, if one has a challenging major (ie an engineering or science field) working full time during the year and maintaining a good gpa would be quite difficult!

        In that respect, I think this quote is being misinterpreted:  she doesn't have "little tolerance" for student loans, but little tolerance for unnecessarily large ones.
        I would feel that this was more likely true if she backed up her statement with current information. For instance, if she considered the current cost of college and the current wages a college student can typically make and argue that they can get through without significant loans. She doesn't do that. She limits her argument to what was possible a number of years ago when low wage jobs had more buying power and college costs were much lower!

        How can someone in such an office not bother to inform themselves on such an important issue especially one they chose to make public statements about?

      •  Your lectures (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sethtriggs

        placing the blame on students are out of place. The $200,000 figure was thrown out by Foxx. OK, it's high. Let's say a student has "only" $50,000 in debt, or even $25,000. And they get out of school and can't find a job. Maybe their field, like an increasing number, requires a master's degree. So they add more debt.

        Yes, you can get a cheaper education. That's not the point. The point is that more and more non-wealthy students are priced out of the education they want, need and deserve.

        And your interpretation is wrong: she is using pulled-out-of-her-ass amounts to justify being against affordable student loans and to push the idea that students should be able to pay for college like they did 40 years ago. That's a non-starter.

        Take the "Can't(or)" out of Congress. Support E. Wayne Powell in Va-07. http://www.ewaynepowell.com/

        by anastasia p on Sat Apr 14, 2012 at 11:40:42 AM PDT

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