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View Diary: Zimmerman - "Stand Your Ground" Pretrial Immunity Hearing? (161 comments)

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  •  thats a question, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    VClib

    not detention.

    •  it's a confrontational question, (5+ / 0-)

      at best.

      But if you believe Zimmerman wasn't intent on detaining Martin, then you have to believe that Z retreated and Martin pursued him, hit him, forced him to the ground, banged his head into the pavement, and that Z then shot him.

      No?

      Unless you have a third account.


      may we not be strangers in the lush province of joy - Charles Wright

      by AlyoshaKaramazov on Sat Apr 14, 2012 at 09:21:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Detaining someone is an act of force. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        johnny wurster, VClib

        Walking up to someone and asking them what they're doing and where they 're going isn't.

        Not only is it perfectly legal, it is encouraged, by police, public safety folks, the media, damned near everybody.

        If that's what happened, then Martin would likely be the aggressor, not Zimmerman.

        Of course, we don't actually know what happened, do we?

        --Shannon

        "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." -- Emiliano Zapata Salazar
        "Dissent is patriotic. Blind obedience is treason." --me

        by Leftie Gunner on Sat Apr 14, 2012 at 09:42:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  How often have you done this? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wishingwell, sukeyna

          How often do you walk up to someone on the street and ask them what they're doing there? What kind of response do you get? Or, how do you think the average person would react if you did so?

          Let us all have the strength to see the humanity in our enemies, and the courage to let them see the humanity in ourselves.

          by Nowhere Man on Sat Apr 14, 2012 at 10:52:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Let's see.... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Nowhere Man, Quicklund

            I've left a place I'm visiting and go to the local store to pick up some ice tea and some candy and then head 'home'. While walking home, I call my girlfriend on my cell and notice some guy watching me from a car who then gets out of his car and start following me.  Weird.  And then the stranger who has been following me wants to know what I'm doing?
            I have done nothing to provoke the confrontation.  Nothing. Yet I am being stopped from going home by a stranger who has no identification and has been acting a little strange himself.

            Not only is it perfectly legal, it is encouraged, by police, public safety folks, the media, damned near everybody.
            So far, walking home talking on a cell with your girlfriend is not illegal, and that's not the scenario where the above quote is encouraged.
            Bottom line, Zimmerman could have called the emergency number and let the 'professionals' handle the situation.

            I think, therefore I am........................... Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose AKA Engine Nighthawk - don't even ask!

            by Lilyvt on Sat Apr 14, 2012 at 01:16:21 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Several. (0+ / 0-)

            I've Never been confrontational about it, more like "hey, man... what's goin' on."

            But yes, i know my neighborhood, and I recognize the people who live in it. If I see someone I don't recognize, especially at night, i will almost always ask them what they're doing.

            I universally get one of two responses.

            Either a plausible story, or "nothin'..." followed by an immediate but low-key exit from the area.

            It probably helps that, having been homeless many years ago, and hlaving grown up poor, I still know how the street thinks.

            But, yes.. it can be done, and should be done, in such a way that only the most committed bad-ass will escalate. And if he does, and it turns physical, I will defend my life and limb, without moral qualm or hesitation.

            If it comes down to you or me, it's gonna be you that makes it that way, and it's gonna be either you, or both of us. And that's not a stance that anyone should ever have to apologize for.

            Self defense is a fundamental human right, and the initiator of violence surrenders his right to life the second he initiates force.

            How does this apply to the Zimmerman / Martin case?

            I'm not qualified to have an opinion, because i don't have the facts.

            --Shannon

            "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." -- Emiliano Zapata Salazar
            "Dissent is patriotic. Blind obedience is treason." --me

            by Leftie Gunner on Sun Apr 15, 2012 at 08:14:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  You move the goalposts (0+ / 0-)

          There was a claim made that we have no idea of Mr Zimmerman was merely watching and observing form a distance. We know this is untrue. Period.

          •  Not at all what I said. (0+ / 0-)

            What I said was that, even if Zimmerman walked up to Martin and asked him who he was and what he was doing, that would not eliminate Zimmerman's legal and moral right to defend himself with deadly force if Martin decided to respond by physically assaulting him.

            Is that what happened?

            I don't know, and neither does anybody else here.

            All I'm saying is that initiating the encounter does not automatically make Zimmerman the initiator of violence. And it is the question of the initiation of force that is crucial to a claim of self-defense.

            "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." -- Emiliano Zapata Salazar
            "Dissent is patriotic. Blind obedience is treason." --me

            by Leftie Gunner on Sun Apr 15, 2012 at 08:18:25 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  It destroys this specific claim: (0+ / 0-)

      "We have no idea if Mr Zimmerman merely watched from a distance / merely intended to watch from a distance."

      We know this is factually untrue to 100% certainty.

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