Skip to main content

View Diary: Daily Kos Elections Morning Digest: Is Democratic Rep. Pete Stark losing it? (152 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  I hate that thinking. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SaoMagnifico, wwmiv

    It's condescending and naive. Ben Nelson's last ADA score was 50. Kerrey's was 85. He's pro-choice, pro-buffet rule, pro-gay marriage. Electing Kerrey does move the state left.

    (-7.62, -6.31), Blood type "O", Democratic-socialist, social anarchist, KY-01, "When smashing monuments, save the pedestals. They always come in handy." — Stanisław Lem

    by Setsuna Mudo on Mon Apr 16, 2012 at 07:16:12 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  In what way was what I said condescending (0+ / 0-)

      and naive? And where did I even mention Kerrey?

      "Once, many, many years ago I thought I was wrong. Of course it turned out I had been right all along. But I was wrong to have thought I was wrong." -John Foster Dulles

      by ArkDem14 on Mon Apr 16, 2012 at 07:18:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You said "I like that thinking" (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        General Goose

        this entire persistent attitude extreme partisans have that they just don't understand us it grossly misses the point of why voters vote the way they do. It's naive to think that you can change someone's mind just by being right and cohesively standing up for what's right, actually it's borderline delusional. It's condescending to voters as well, you're treating them like idiots.

        And the country has not "shifted right" either, at least not in any meaningful, representative way. Maybe in a narrow American left-right linear sense but that's meaningless to harp upon.

        I am really too pre-caffeine to argue this, even if I was interested in doing so, which I'm actually not, but fine: there are some states that liberals can not win. Ever. Why? Voters rarely have a concrete grasp of the issues, or anything approaching a cogent ideology. When you have states like Mississippi where 98% of blacks vote Democratic and 93% of whites vote Republican that is not some small ideological/statistical coincidence. It is not a coincidence that there is generally a correlation between how religious a state is and how Republican it is.

        Lets take MS: Mississippi may not be officially segregated anymore but it is culturally segregated, there are still effectively two societies, a white "overclass" and a black "underclass" that do not attend the same churches, do not shop at the same stores, do not live in the same neighborhoods, often don't attend the same schools, ect., et. al. You're getting the picture. The signature problem here is that elections in MS are largely conducted along cultural/communal lines and while this does in turn evolve into an ideological discrepancy, the way to convert Mississippi would have to involve taking back the culture first and not the ideological discussion. The thing is, while the carryover of race makes this conveniently visible, it is the same everywhere; there are two separate cultures in America, a culture that produces Republicans and a culture that produces Democrats. John Edwards was right in that sense, there are two Americas, but they are not only separated by wealth, the single most dividing issue is actually probably religion, and I'm not talking about which religion, even within one denomination of a religion all that matters is who controls each church and who attends each church. the ideological agenda promoted by churches are singularly important in American politics.

        To think that Republicans have hijacked the conversation by consistently running ideological conservatives is completely laughable and naive.

        To the extent Republicans control states they control them by controlling the culture -- not the political dialogue. And while it's nice to think that we need only convince them and reason with them and bring about some godly liberal kingdom you're missing the point, which is my point. That's a feel-good security blanket we wrap ourselves in at out peril, it pretends that people vote based on there rational at least somewhat thought out political ideologies and world views like we political junkies do, and that we can only convince them these ideologies are wrong. That's not how it works. Most Republican states are small, and most modern Republican voter enclaves are rural, this is not coincidence, what fuels Republican strongholds are a sort of quintessential small-town style, most Republicans exist in an entirely different culture, which comprises there entire social circle, their spiritual fulfillment, their peers, and this culture is a Republican culture. Democrats have no access to this culture, and we must work to expand our cultural circles to increase our sphere of influence in red states, not this silly progressive lala land belief that if we ran progressives everywhere we would win !!1! (note: I am not talking about you here, I'm talking about the other guy. But there is nothing to "like" about what he's saying and you shouldn't encourage him). Once we do that it will become exponentially easier to elect liberals.

        And even if you could somehow embark on a successful multi-decade elaborate campaign to (somehow) take over the entire Republican cultural machine (every church, school, and small town social structure) it wouldn't be worth doing because it would inescapably change the Democratic party for the worse.

        So not only do I think this view is naive, it's also really insulting, because just the vast majority of voters don't vote the way they do because of some coherent ideology that we can then change their minds about, does not mean they don't have a very good and compelling reason for voting the way they do.

        (-7.62, -6.31), Blood type "O", Democratic-socialist, social anarchist, KY-01, "When smashing monuments, save the pedestals. They always come in handy." — Stanisław Lem

        by Setsuna Mudo on Mon Apr 16, 2012 at 08:07:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I am not going to respond to all that (0+ / 0-)

          faux outrage and that profusion of the obvious.  Really now.

          I don't even feel like explaining what I said because it you so totally missed it and engaged in a 5 page rant about how Democrats should not argue progressive policy in the court of public opinion, as if these things do not correlate with the way people think and what sort of policy proposals people are wont to support. Part of this is expanding cultural circles as you said, and part of this also extends to having Democrats willing to actually take up debate on these issues at times, none of which I was relating to the NE-SEN race.

          Again, you initially brought up Kerrey and Nelson people I did not even mention. And now you bring up all this stuff, (including an extensive bunch of junk on my own state!!). It's annoying.

          So not only do I think this view is naive, it's also really insulting, because just the vast majority of voters don't vote the way they do because of some coherent ideology that we can then change their minds about, does not mean they don't have a very good and compelling reason for voting the way they do.
          What's insulting is you piling a bunch of shit on me that was mostly directed at other, more liberal users. But it's also laughed to say the vast majority of people don't vote according to any coherent ideology. You second part makes as much sense as the first, "Does not mean they don't have a very good and compelling reason for voting the way they do." Hahaha. When most people don't even know the names of their representatives, and couldn't even pass a basic civics test, it is also fair to assume they don't actually have any knowledge of policy and that only a vague sense of ideology guides them. Which is why it's good for Democrats to promote a positive progressive ideology couched in common sense terms of melding government and private market for the greatest good of the country.

          And I really didn't intend to get into this kind of crap.

          "Once, many, many years ago I thought I was wrong. Of course it turned out I had been right all along. But I was wrong to have thought I was wrong." -John Foster Dulles

          by ArkDem14 on Mon Apr 16, 2012 at 10:26:01 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You need to step away from the keyboard (0+ / 0-)

            and cool off a bit.

            You commented directly in the middle of a thread about the Kerrey and the NE-Sen race, if you didn't mean your comments in relation to that race I humbly submit that that's misleading. I was responding to the claims of a trollish front pager who came in here to whine about that nasty DINO Kerrey, you responded by telling him "he has a good point" and repeated a bunch of ridiculous claims, most saliently "Democrats do not promote a cohesive progressive vision."

            Balderdash.

            I deconstructed those claims. If what I said was obvious it's only because it is so obviously wrong, and I only bothered to respond because you asked me to elaborate. And then when I do walk you through it, you get angry posting a long comment attacking me. I'm really not sure what to say.

            (-7.62, -6.31), Blood type "O", Democratic-socialist, social anarchist, KY-01, "When smashing monuments, save the pedestals. They always come in handy." — Stanisław Lem

            by Setsuna Mudo on Mon Apr 16, 2012 at 11:12:12 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  No you didn't, (0+ / 0-)

              you went on and on with your own crap, and condescended me.

              If my comments were directed towards the NE-SEN race, they would have had some reference to the NE-SEN race, which they didn't. Disregarding the attitude you have for the other user, whether he is right or wrong, I told him he had a good point in that Republicans have more aggressively pursued and promoted their agenda for decades which has had the effect of consistently moving political discussion further and further rightward until a Heritage Foundation private market Health Care plan is now socialism.

              You are attaching me to things other than what I said, and misreading what I did say, and I called you out on it. So you responded with a long, and again, very condescending, comment basically implying I'm an elitist who knows nothing, while shunting forward some ridiculous and elitist ideas of your own.

              Walk me through it? That is the most vouchsafing, patronizing term I've had anyone use on me in a while. I'm not attacking you, I am calling you out for being rude and for giving me a bunch of grief. That long comment of yours was a discordant bit of jumbled points that took me a while to decipher, and some of them are pretty asinine in that you present them as fact when they are utterly laughable.

              And Democrats have not, in the past, presented a coherent progressive vision. Part of this is that Democrats have simply not proved as organized and media-savvy as Republicans have been. This is also not something you can simply give me the debate equivalent of the middle finger and say balderdash like your own opinion on the matter is a sanctified fact.

              "Once, many, many years ago I thought I was wrong. Of course it turned out I had been right all along. But I was wrong to have thought I was wrong." -John Foster Dulles

              by ArkDem14 on Mon Apr 16, 2012 at 11:42:10 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  SetsunaMudo, ArkDem14 (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ArkDem14

                I like your passion. You are both excellent Ds.

                But I suggest that the time you're using on these posts might be better spent on some other endeavor.

                To rephrase, if a troll had managed to foment this kind of discord, I'd suggest that he was successful.

                "I hope; therefore, I can live."
                For SSP users, see my Tips for Swingnuts diary

                by tietack on Mon Apr 16, 2012 at 12:30:26 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Truth be told (0+ / 0-)

                  Germany is at fault for making me even more of a whiny bitch than I usually am. The original poster though, (and I disagree with him too and think he is looking at things too simplistically), didn't seem like a troll, and honestly, if people had more patience and politeness, should have been debated with and given our more electorally minded viewpoints.

                  "Once, many, many years ago I thought I was wrong. Of course it turned out I had been right all along. But I was wrong to have thought I was wrong." -John Foster Dulles

                  by ArkDem14 on Mon Apr 16, 2012 at 02:24:19 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  The part I don't understand... (0+ / 0-)

          ...is where you say it's insulting to voters.  How is asking people to consider your views (as a candidate) vs. their current views, and to consider the possibility that they ought to think more like you, more insulting than telling them that you will honor their current views when honoring them would make you an apostate in your own party, and when not honoring them would make you a liar?

          But nobody's buying flowers from the flower lady.

          by Rich in PA on Mon Apr 16, 2012 at 05:21:12 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Ask him if he's for those things now. (0+ / 0-)

      I'm curious to hear his answer.

      But nobody's buying flowers from the flower lady.

      by Rich in PA on Mon Apr 16, 2012 at 05:18:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site