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  •  I don't care if it were consensual (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Xavier Onassis EMTP, stunvegas

    The PD's motto is "to protect and to serve" Any cop having sex while on duty may be servicing but he is not serving and may be using protection but he is not protecting

    •  That's my point too (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      entlord

      Aside from the many different ways this could be a serious criminal problem, as you mentioned below -- public safety is a team sport.  While he's doing this, there's one less person running calls.

      Put it this way:  how does TYT know that there isn't a woman stranded in a broken down car out in BFE, not getting cell phone reception out in the desert, with a screaming child boiling in a car seat, while this is going on?  If only a state trooper would come by and help out.  

      And you know, if someone had died from lack of assistance while Lopez was doing the above, and TYT found out about it, they'd be screaming for blood because that jerk was off doing the nasty while he should've been working.  Seriously, they make my head explode with their aggressive stupidity.

    •  It does matter . (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Xavier Onassis EMTP

      Its two very different things .
      One is a wrist slap the other is jail time .
      And in this case , I'm thinking jail time .

      "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

      by indycam on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 09:24:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The fact (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        indycam

        that this guy has unlawfully detained women at vehicle stops for sexual purposes should be a humongous red flag.  I'm willing to bet that if there were any interest in prosecuting him -- which there obviously isn't -- they'd find a lot of women who've been seriously harmed by this out of control asshole.

        •  Some jail time for the people helping him (0+ / 0-)

          avoid jail time would not be bemoaned by me .

          "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

          by indycam on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 09:47:20 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The most important thing (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            indycam, entlord

            IMHO would be to have more civilians understanding the dynamics at play, and supporting those of us who seek to change the system from inside.

            We have an uphill battle in getting people to understand what we're trying to tell them; unfortunately it's not a level playing field in terms of information, whereas the public generally perceives that it is.  

            See:  http://www.dailykos.com/...

            Also, a lot of people are heavily invested in not criticizing Cenk.  Please help us to help you.

            •  I've said in the past , (0+ / 0-)

              when I am made king all cops will video everything they do on the job . From the moment they start their working day by punching the time clock until they punch out .

              "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

              by indycam on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 10:16:45 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Honestly (0+ / 0-)

                I don't think that's the right approach, though I get where you're coming from.  Think about it, would you agree to that in your work environment?  These people are under extreme stressors anyway, does that seem likely to make them more stable?  Who would want to work under those conditions?

                I think the main thing that needs to happen is for citizens to take up the habit of listening to us.  If we were allowed to create some transparency -- and garner significant civilian support -- we could drastically improve the quality of public service.  Seriously, ethical cops get crushed by the system, and no civilians pipe up in support, then civilians wonder why cops are such a bunch of jerks.

                It's a bit maddening, really.  The key is for civilians to take more responsibility, which is why it doesn't happen.

                •  They are given great power over people . (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  stunvegas

                  They are allowed to break laws that you and I are fined for .
                  They are given fire arms .
                  With all that they are "powerful" .
                  We expect them to hold themselves to a high standard .
                  They are our employes , we should be able to watch and judge what they do while we are paying them .

                  Think about it, would you agree to that in your work environment?  These people are under extreme stressors anyway, does that seem likely to make them more stable?  Who would want to work under those conditions?
                  There are many jobs that are videoed , bank tellers , casino employes , cash register people , etc etc etc . Working and having everything you do on tape is already done .
                  And it works both ways , it protects cops from false claims against them also .

                  "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

                  by indycam on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 10:42:55 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Right (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    entlord

                    I understand that.

                    I think what civilians don't really get a sense of is the internal friction.  Believe it or not, there are a lot of people inside public safety agencies who definitely understand that they work for the public, and who do go above and beyond the call of duty on a regular basis.  There is a huge sense of duty among ethical first responders.

                    I guess it's counterintuitive to people, that sometimes the right way to get someone to respond is to back off a little.  Civilian pressure is definitely needed to force change; however, it won't work under civilian direction.  That's maybe the counterintuitive part.  

                    Put it this way:  ethical officers have a much clearer picture of what needs to change, and how, than civilians ever could; if they had strong civilian backing, the system would be forced to change in a way that worked for the citizens overall.

                    People don't see that they need to address the root causes.  Constant video surveillance would only treat the symptoms -- ineffectively.  For one thing, cops do all kinds of things that would be very hard to videotape.  Secondly, someone has to review the tapes and confront wrongdoing -- who?

                    This is the thing:  they already know who the no-goodnicks are.  They don't need video.  They know.  They protect them.  That's the problem.

                    •  ... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Xavier Onassis EMTP
                      For one thing, cops do all kinds of things that would be very hard to videotape.  Secondly, someone has to review the tapes and confront wrongdoing -- who?
                      In my case the judge would have , he could have seen who was and was not telling the truth .

                      If a civilian thinks he or she has been treated unfairly , abused , etc , the tape could be played back before the officers superiors and the person . If it backs up the complaint then its no longer a civilians word against a cop .

                      As is now , the cop has the home field advantage , knows from day in and day out practice how to play the games to win against an unpracticed civilian .  

                      A tape allows the superiors to see what is being done now out of their sight . It allows supervisors to supervise what is really happening out in the field where the cop is now unsupervised .

                      If the cop wore a video camera , it would be hard not to see / hear problem behavior . Cameras have become very small and light weight .
                      Have you ever seen the cat cams ?
                      Someone put a small camera on a cat and watched where it traveled around to .
                       

                      "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

                      by indycam on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 11:34:58 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Cat cam!! (0+ / 0-)

                        wheeeee!!!!  Love that.

                        I see what you're saying.  I think there's another distinction to be made, though.

                        The deal is, there's a lot of shady crap between police departments, prosecutors and judges.  It's one of those things where you can't force anyone to see what they refuse to see, even with a videotape.  Here's an example of what I'm talking about:
                        http://medic343.wordpress.com/...

                        I think that if citizens got on board with ethical first responders, pressure could be much more effectively applied.  For example, the people at PBSOtalk.com have started a "Brady list," where anyone can go to find out who the cops are that other cops would warn you about if they could.  But they can't.  Then if you went to court it wouldn't just be your word against his; you'd have the same inside knowledge that the prosecutors surely have.  As it stands now, they leverage the fact that you don't know.

                        There are a lot of situations where, if there were some way for a decent cop to get a citizen's attention, that citizen would walk out of court and probably sue the city and win, on top of it.  Here's another example:
                        http://medic343.wordpress.com/...

                        I think that if civilians could understand this tweak that needs to happen in their viewpoint, we would win this.

                        •  The best press in the world would not (0+ / 0-)

                          have helped me . They were not there .

                          A list of bad cops would not have helped me . I could not ask him to stop while I checked a list to see if his abuse of me was a one off or part of a pattern .

                          There are a lot of situations where, if there were some way for a decent cop to get a citizen's attention, that citizen would walk out of court and probably sue the city and win, on top of it.
                          If a decent cop tried to help me , I don't know that it would do any good . He was not there , he can't get on the stand and say much .

                          Your two links seem to go to the same same .

                          Time for lunch .
                          Talk with you in a few hours if you are still around / care to .

                          "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

                          by indycam on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 11:57:35 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Sorry (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            indycam

                            Second link s/b:
                            http://medic343.wordpress.com/...

                            The thing is, when good cops are allowed to spill the beans on bad cops, and citizens listen, prosecutors and judges can't pretend that the bad cop is legit -- which is likely already known to them, because they see the same goober cops in court all the time.  

                            Good cops hate working with these douchebags for this reason; if the defendant's lawyer is on the ball, they can find out about serious credibility problems with bad cops and bring them up in court, forcing the judge's hand.  Judges are prone to going with the flow for political reasons, until they're forced not to.  The question isn't what they know, it's what you can prove they know.

                            This is a really important subtlety that I'm not sure people understand.

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