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  •  Study: We all pee Monsanto's bee-killing Roundup (37+ / 0-)

    "A recent study showed that every human tested had the world's most popular pesticide, Roundup, detectable in their urine at concentrations between five and twenty times the level considered safe for drinking water."

    Read this and decided not to eat my usual breakfast bowl of high-fructose neurotoxin today.

    http://truth-out.org/...

    "Without faith we cannot move, without science we cannot see." -Albert Einstein

    by quiet is the new loud on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 09:02:28 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Roundup is bee-killing? (4+ / 0-)

      And it's an herbicide, not a pesticide.

      The road to Hell is paved with pragmatism.

      by TheOrchid on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 09:18:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Um, think about it... (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        createpeace, oceanview, gerrilea, DuzT
        And it's an herbicide, not a pesticide.
        Bees need flowering plants to survive. Roundup kills all kinds of plants, inluding flowering ones. Any questions?

        I vote we run Rick Scott out of Florida on a high-speed rail.

        by ObamOcala on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 09:28:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Um, yeah, actually. (13+ / 0-)

          Where, in the entire debate around Colony Collapse Disorder, has anyone ever said anything about killing bees by killing plants from which they might otherwise have gotten pollen?

          No one.

          The issue is whether certain pesticides (not herbicides) are killing bees, or weakening their immune systems enough that normally tolerated environmental factors kill them.

          Calling an herbicide "bee killing", unless it actually kills bees, is wrong, muddies the arguments we're trying to make, and confuses people.  You have link(s) to show that Roundup actually kills bees (as opposed to just plants)?  Post 'em.

          The road to Hell is paved with pragmatism.

          by TheOrchid on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 09:43:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You haven't thought this through I see. (0+ / 0-)

            If the Bees are gathering pollen from genetically modified crops, then the pollen is genetically modified.

            Most of GM crops have terminator genes, ie., they don't produce seeds that can be planted.

            You do the math.

            •  This may be the weirdest argument I've seen... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              gatorcog, sagesource

              ... at least in this millennium.

              Your logic flow seems to be:

              • Bees gather pollen from GM crops.
              • Many GM crops have genetic damage so that they don't product fertile seeds.
              • Therefore, bees die.

              To which I reply:  Whut?  The bees are dying, not simply not breeding well.  Dead bees are found.  And the genes in your food don't mingle with your own genes - you have no chance of becoming a radish monster, no matter how many radishes you eat.

              So, doing the math:

              1 + 1 = 2i

              Where i is the representation of the square root of negative one, making the value 2i into the type of number known as an irrational number.

              --------------
              How can Obama's administration have failed if everyone who is unemployed only has themselves to blame?

              by Laughing Vergil on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 12:54:27 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Imaginary number. (3+ / 0-)

                Not picking sides, just lending aid to a poor defenseless class of numbers...

              •  The pollen is modified as well. (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mrkvica, gerrilea, opinionated, DuzT

                So is the nectar. The terminator gene alters the sexual parts of the flowers on food. Most of this stuff is also Roundup ready, meaning that it has been modified to not be affected by Roundup and a lot of varieties are modified to not be affected by pests. What would keep pests away? Some sort of toxin or the pests don't recognize the plant for what it is?

                I don't like the idea of fish genes being spliced onto my tomatoes or whatever other weird combo Monsanto comes up with. You may think it doesn't make a difference, but it does. High fructose corn syrup is not the same thing as simple corn sugar, which isn't the same thing as cane sugar. Your pancreas doesn't recognize it, can't produce the enzymes to digest it and it doesn't trigger any fullness after having eaten it. Same goes for all the molecular modifications of sugar like aspertame. So I won't turn into a radish, but my food is messed up and my cells can break down.

                I'm not ok with it.

          •  Dude, you're confusing the word "pesticide" with (13+ / 0-)

            "insecticide", which, along with "herbicide", is a class of "pesticide".

            As an organic farmer for almost 30 years, I can assure you that all classes of pesticides exert pressure, in a variety of complex ways, on bees and other beneficial insects, whether "targets" or not.  Entire ecosystems are upended.  I invite you to stand beside a thousand acre field that was once alive with an unimaginable variety (which, as Gene Logsdon so succinctly points out, ". . . is not the spice of life, it is the key to life!"), one that you've seen while still alive, and revisit it one week after being "treated" with Roundup.  Then you'll get it, I promise.  

            •  well said farmerhunt n/t (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              KenBee, gerrilea, Larsstephens

              America could have chosen to be the worlds doctor, or grocer. We choose instead to be her policeman. pity

              by cacamp on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 04:11:02 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I AM Confused By Your Logic... (0+ / 0-)

              Are you saying that by killing the so called "weeds" with roundup, the act of eliminating the so called "weeds" harms the bees because the bees no longer have the "weeds" for a food source?

              If this is true, how did the bees survive the 150 years from 1800 to 1950 when people chopped cotton by hand?  No pesticides were used, but millions of acres of fields were kept as close to a desert as possible to get the largest cotton crop possible.

              Surely during your 30 years as an organic farmer you tried to keep the weeds out of your garden, I do.

            •  Killing things we don't like is a really (0+ / 0-)

              bad habit.  We should only kill what we are willing to eat.

              Fear leads people to kill first and ask questions later. We should get over our fears.

              People to Wall Street: "LET OUR MONEY GO"

              by hannah on Wed Apr 25, 2012 at 02:26:44 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Roundup is a dessicant (0+ / 0-)

          It dries  - dehydrates the hell out of a plant.  It would be interesting to see a study showing a link between the acting agent that dehydrates the plant in Roundup and the same agent working on the bees.  I haven't seen any and I'm not sure there would be a valid connection, but maybe there is.

          Well, I guess I don't know what you mean by "equal justice under the law." - Bushy McSpokesperson

          by gatorcog on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 02:51:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Glyphosate (Roundup) Is Not A Dessicant... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            FishOutofWater

            It may appear to be one because the leaves shrivel and die off.  Roundup inhibits the enzyme EPSP synthase.  Without this enzyme the plant is not able to produce necessary proteins that are essential for plant growth.

            Some herbicides prevent photosynthesis.

            I doubt that bees have the enzyme EPSP synthase, so they shouldn't be impacted by glyphosate (Roundup).

            •  From Occupy Monsanto site: (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              opinionated

              Bees Harmed By Neonicotinoid Pesticides, Studies Show

              Scientists have discovered ways in which even low doses of widely used pesticides can harm bumblebees and honeybees, interfering with their homing abilities and making them lose their way.

              “In North America, several bumblebee species which used to be common have more or less disappeared from the entire continent,” while in Britain, three species have become extinct, he said in a statement.

              “So far, they (the procedures) mostly require manufacturers to ensure that doses encountered on the field do not kill bees, but they basically ignore the consequences of doses that do not kill them but may cause behavioral difficulties,” he said in a statement.

              WE face the very real possibility of the collapse of our entire ecosystem and the death of most life on this planet from these "uncontrolled experiments" being carried out by companies that should be de-listed and their executives be put on trial for crimes against humanity. And you'd have a debate on the minutea of one enzyme blocker?

              Please try to see the bigger picture here.

              -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

              by gerrilea on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 11:24:34 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Unfortunately, we define crime as an (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                gerrilea

                intentional act.  Unintended consequences and accidents don't count, regardless of the fact they do more harm than criminal acts.
                Think how much collateral damage we left behind in Iraq.

                People to Wall Street: "LET OUR MONEY GO"

                by hannah on Wed Apr 25, 2012 at 02:38:42 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  That depends doesn't it? (0+ / 0-)

                  Manslaughter charges.

                  It was an accident that I bought off the EPA & USDA investigators that accidentally deleted the "anomalous" study results.

                  As for the "collateral damage" in Iraq, that was a known consequence of bombing hospitals and water treatment facilities....

                  I do understand your point but the "GRAS" (Generally Recognized As Safe) designation/labeling is not an accident either.  It's a way for corporations to skirt any legitimate testing of their products for actual safety before they go onto the market.

                  Árpád Pusztai's studies almost 20 yrs ago proved Monsanto's GMO products were dangerous.  He was discredited, lost his job, tenure and was run out of town for telling the truth.

                  That was no accident either.

                  -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                  by gerrilea on Wed Apr 25, 2012 at 04:42:58 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  The first I ever heard of Roundup (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              jfromga

              it was touted as a way to get rid of cattails in a lake.  When I suggested it would be better to pull the cattails out with the roots, it was explained by the environmental protection people they couldn't do that because they cattails would be so laden with pollutants they'd taken out of the water contaminated by road run-off that they couldn't take them to the dump. So, I asked what was the problem with just leaving them there and letting them filter the heavy metals etc. out of the water.  That brought us to the real reason for "cleaning" out the lake -- the cattails were making it hard for fishermen to catch fish.  Which, if the waters were polluted with urban run-off, people should eat anyway.

              Sport fishing, IMHO, is killing for sport -- not an edifying human attribute.

              People to Wall Street: "LET OUR MONEY GO"

              by hannah on Wed Apr 25, 2012 at 02:35:59 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I stand corrected, thank you n/t (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              in the Trees

              Well, I guess I don't know what you mean by "equal justice under the law." - Bushy McSpokesperson

              by gatorcog on Wed Apr 25, 2012 at 12:42:56 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  years ago Ortho was the name on the weed-killer (0+ / 0-)

        and Ortho-novum (no-ovum?) was the label on my birth control pills...

      •  Herbicides can effect animals. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mookins, blueoasis, mrkvica, DuzT

        Never meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer.--Bruce Graham

        by Ice Blue on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 10:08:21 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Roundup's main selling point... (4+ / 0-)

          ...is how little effect it has on animals and how readily it breaks down.

          As pesticides go, it's ridiculously safe.

          •  And as... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Ice Blue

            all herbicides go, eventually plants develop resistance to them and become a waste of energy to produce.

            The idea that waging war on nature is a good thing but waging war on humanity is a bad thing boggles my mind.

            (Not saying that you believe we should be using biocides, just saying that many liberals still fall for the frame that unless we are vigilant against nature, nature will kill us off!)

            A Victory Garden documents our experience transitioning from suburban lawn to edible food forest based on permaculture principles.

            by FinchJ on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 02:11:31 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You Are Correct That... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              sagesource
              eventually plants develop resistance to them and become a waste of energy to produce
              But that is true of antibiotics as well.  Using your thinking we should quit using antibiotics altogether as well.

              the real issue should be when should we use pesticides and antibiotics.  Antibiotics are overused by ranchers and doctors.  Putting antibiotics in feed shortens the time before the antibiotic becomes useless.  I have seen doctors prescribe antibiotics without a tested diagnosis of strep throat whcih also shortens the time before the antibiotic is useless.  

              •  Well, no. That is not my thinking. (0+ / 0-)

                The use of biocides in landscape management and the use of antibiotics as a medicine of last resort are not the same issue.

                First- the use of biocides in agriculture and landscape management is first and foremost a cultural issue. As a culture we value monocultures, decreased diversity, and landscapes that conform to our notion of what nature or a farm are supposed to look like- rather than what the landscape is telling us.

                You don't plant a massive monoculture, even with crop rotation, and not expect it to become a veritable smorgasbord for herbivores and plant disease. The whole idea that you can is not based in reality. The same goes with forcing thousands of animals into a confinement operation. Just because you have antibiotics doesn't mean you can force feed animals diets their bodies cannot digest naturally while they stand in their own feces alongside hundreds of other animals.

                No, the use of these "products" stems from our insane belief that we can force organisms into unnatural life styles simply because we have technology. The idea reeks of more than just hubris.

                That said, the judicious use of antibiotics and medicine for health of an animal that has otherwise been fed real food and allowed to live in an environment close to its EEA (environment of evolutionary adaptedness) is another topic entirely.

                You took "my thinking" to the extreme position of never using anything man makes, ever. Which is of course ridiculous and disrespectful. My thinking includes the ability to have different positions on different subjects.

                A Victory Garden documents our experience transitioning from suburban lawn to edible food forest based on permaculture principles.

                by FinchJ on Wed Apr 25, 2012 at 06:23:13 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  "Ridiculously safe" according to...? (8+ / 0-)

            There are studies documenting Roundup's teratogenic effects in animals.

            Roundup's commercial formulation has never been submitted to the EPA for testing.

            In addition to glyphosphate, Roundup contains the surfactant, POEA, which increases herbicide penetration of both plant and animal cells.

            A 2009 study, published in the journal Chemical Research in Toxicology, found that Roundup--even in small concentrations--caused the death in vitro of human embryonic, placental, and umbilical cells.

            Several studies, from 2005 to 2009, have demonstrated that Roundup is an endocrine disruptor.

            In 1991, the owner and 14 employees of the humorously-named Craven Labs were convicted and sentenced based on false testimony and falsification of scientific tests of pesticides.  Monsanto was among the companies that hired Craven, and Roundup was one of the products they tested.

            The EU has classified glyphosphate, the main active ingredient in Roundup, as "dangerous for the environment" and "toxic for aquatic organisms".

            Ridiculous, yes.  Safe, no.

          •  Corporations said the same thing (9+ / 0-)

            about DDT and other substances (like asbestos) later proven very harmful.  I don't believe a word corporations say anymore.   They'll say anything for a buck.

            There already is class warfare in America. Unfortunately, the rich are winning.

            by Puddytat on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 03:18:07 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Oops... (0+ / 0-)

            Roundup isn't a pesticide, I meant to say herbicide.

        •  Agent Orange was an herbicide (8+ / 0-)

          That it had horrible effects on other lifeforms was something we "overlooked"

          fact does not require fiction for balance (proudly a DFH)

          by mollyd on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 11:31:45 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Anyone can walk into a garden store and buy (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            in the Trees

            the broadleaf herbicides that comprised Agent Orange, 50:50% 2,4,5-T and 2,4-D.  Roundup is much less toxic to mammals, at least for acute exposures.

            Where are we, now that we need us most?

            by Frank Knarf on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 02:24:43 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Hell, I was the official Chlordane sprayer around (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Frank Knarf

              my house as a kid -- mix it with water in a 1-gallon jug with a pump sprayer and around the house I'd go. No mask, no gloves, no notion that it was in any way harmful.

              Didn't have a clue what the stuff was until I moved into a new place in 1980 and my next door neighbor completely freaked out when she saw me blissfully spraying away.

              Yeehaw.

              "I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." - Jon Stewart

              by here4tehbeer on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 11:05:31 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yep. I remember having Chlordane sprayed (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                here4tehbeer

                around the foundation multiple times to stop termites.  We kids spent lots of happy hours in the basement, trying to  avoid contracting chlor acne.

                Then when we ran around outside and got tar on our bare feet the grown-ups would wash it off with gasoline.  It's amazing any of us are still here.

                Where are we, now that we need us most?

                by Frank Knarf on Wed Apr 25, 2012 at 06:50:45 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Oh yeah - the Skippy peanut butter jar half-filled (0+ / 0-)

                  with *leaded* 90 octane all-purpose miracle cleaner sitting on the garage shelf next to all the other toxic liquids and powders.

                  Good times :)

                  "I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." - Jon Stewart

                  by here4tehbeer on Wed Apr 25, 2012 at 09:00:27 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Correction. 2,4,5-T is no longer available, (0+ / 0-)

              having been phased out due to dioxin contamination concerns.

              Where are we, now that we need us most?

              by Frank Knarf on Wed Apr 25, 2012 at 07:57:51 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  sometime ignorance isn't bliss (13+ / 0-)

      but it allows us to keep on functioning.  

      It reminds me of Monk and the theme song from Randy Newman:

      . . . Poison in the very air we breathe
      Do you know what's in the water that you drink?
      Well I do, and it's amazing
      People think I'm crazy, 'cause I worry all the time
      If you paid attention, you'd be worried too
      You better pay attention
      Or this world we love so much might just kill you. . .
      To actually acknowledge just how bad things are might cripple us all emotionally and mentally.
      •  Or it will enrage us into action.... (0+ / 0-)

        The choice is up to each individual but they should be allowed to make that choice by giving them all the facts first.

        -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

        by gerrilea on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 11:29:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I wasn't supporting cover ups (0+ / 0-)

          by corporations,  merely the idea that if we constantly focus on the dangers around us,   many people would encounter difficulties functioning.  Psychology versus morality.   The facts are the facts about how continuing stressors harm organisms.

          •  Agreed but some dangers are truly bigger than (0+ / 0-)

            others.  The fear that I might get a paper cut while opening a ream of paper doesn't stop me from opening it.

            I trek on gallantly against the inherent danger of that ream of paper presents.... ;)

            As for the destruction of almost all life on this planet caused by these crimes against humanity and nature truly rise above the mundane.

            Fukushima is destroying the oceans and Monsanto is destroying the biodiversity on the land...where does this leave us?

            Extinct.

            Extinction from these two culprits are much more real than any global warming.  Fukushima within 5 yrs (radioactive plankton is already showing up on the West Coast) and Monsanto within 25 yrs.  

            Add to this the military's use of depleted uranium "bullets" throughout the Middle East and we are seriously toast and so is the ability of this planet to sustain any type of life.

            If we don't stop these things and just put our heads in the sand then we seal our fate.

            We should stop "functioning" and come together and halt these things, where possible.

            Sorry for the rant, but I feel like you are trying to brush these things under rug for no other reason than to save people some psychological harm...Will psychology matter when were all dead?

            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

            by gerrilea on Wed Apr 25, 2012 at 10:33:06 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  but global warming and the resource (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              gerrilea

              wars will get more people first.   Which to worry about?   We all die,  species go extinct.   It is not death that is the problem,   its the living with the knowledge of the stupidity of it all.

              •  ROFL...now I get your point...really (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                jfromga
                its the living with the knowledge of the stupidity of it all.
                We really don't have much time to worry though...sadly...

                -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                by gerrilea on Wed Apr 25, 2012 at 11:17:11 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  Good thing (0+ / 0-)

      we don't all start off the day with a steaming cup of pee...

      In the sea, Biscayne, there prinks
      The young emerald evening star,
      Good light for drunkards, poets, widows,
      And ladies soon to be married.

      by looty on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 10:19:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Um, Roundup is an herbicide. The suspect in CCD (0+ / 0-)

      (colony collapse disorder) is neonicotinoid insecticides, a different kind of chemical entirely.

      By the way, can anyone find a link to a peer-reviewed study on glyphosate in urine?  All I could get from translating the link was:

      (*) The address of the examining university laboratories, the analytical values ​​and the evaluation of the analytical method are the editors. Because of not inconsiderable pressure from representatives of the agrochemical and the fear that the work of the laboratory could be debilitating to the entire series analysis will be published until later this year. It is currently the glyphosate analysis in several laboratories in Germany, Switzerland and Austria up to standard and in the stress magnitudes representative of animals, people can find food and feed. Because so far there is not even possible to run their own stress or that of their livestock to analyze a calibrated standard.

      The truth-out story was ascribing autism to everything from mercury to BPA, so I'm not sure it is relevant.

      Where are we, now that we need us most?

      by Frank Knarf on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 02:20:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Another reason (0+ / 0-)

      not to drink urine.

    •  So...we can pee on dendelions and crab grass (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DuzT

      and it's possible they'll die due to the concentrations in our bodies of Round-Up? And corporations get to make awesome profits creating this human impact without much concern for consequences and politicians just care about the campaign cash.  And since our pee also contains elevated levels of estrogen and anti-depressants, heart medications, etc. maybe the weeds will die happy unless PMS kicks in?  Or unless the weeds are in a really bad mood already and resistant to Round-Up?

      When life gives you wingnuts, make wingnut butter!

      by antirove on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 11:24:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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