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View Diary: Monsanto Buys Out Leading Bee Research Firm (163 comments)

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  •  Um, think about it... (4+ / 0-)
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    createpeace, oceanview, gerrilea, DuzT
    And it's an herbicide, not a pesticide.
    Bees need flowering plants to survive. Roundup kills all kinds of plants, inluding flowering ones. Any questions?

    I vote we run Rick Scott out of Florida on a high-speed rail.

    by ObamOcala on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 09:28:33 AM PDT

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    •  Um, yeah, actually. (13+ / 0-)

      Where, in the entire debate around Colony Collapse Disorder, has anyone ever said anything about killing bees by killing plants from which they might otherwise have gotten pollen?

      No one.

      The issue is whether certain pesticides (not herbicides) are killing bees, or weakening their immune systems enough that normally tolerated environmental factors kill them.

      Calling an herbicide "bee killing", unless it actually kills bees, is wrong, muddies the arguments we're trying to make, and confuses people.  You have link(s) to show that Roundup actually kills bees (as opposed to just plants)?  Post 'em.

      The road to Hell is paved with pragmatism.

      by TheOrchid on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 09:43:33 AM PDT

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      •  You haven't thought this through I see. (0+ / 0-)

        If the Bees are gathering pollen from genetically modified crops, then the pollen is genetically modified.

        Most of GM crops have terminator genes, ie., they don't produce seeds that can be planted.

        You do the math.

        •  This may be the weirdest argument I've seen... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gatorcog, sagesource

          ... at least in this millennium.

          Your logic flow seems to be:

          • Bees gather pollen from GM crops.
          • Many GM crops have genetic damage so that they don't product fertile seeds.
          • Therefore, bees die.

          To which I reply:  Whut?  The bees are dying, not simply not breeding well.  Dead bees are found.  And the genes in your food don't mingle with your own genes - you have no chance of becoming a radish monster, no matter how many radishes you eat.

          So, doing the math:

          1 + 1 = 2i

          Where i is the representation of the square root of negative one, making the value 2i into the type of number known as an irrational number.

          How can Obama's administration have failed if everyone who is unemployed only has themselves to blame?

          by Laughing Vergil on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 12:54:27 PM PDT

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          •  Imaginary number. (3+ / 0-)

            Not picking sides, just lending aid to a poor defenseless class of numbers...

          •  The pollen is modified as well. (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mrkvica, gerrilea, opinionated, DuzT

            So is the nectar. The terminator gene alters the sexual parts of the flowers on food. Most of this stuff is also Roundup ready, meaning that it has been modified to not be affected by Roundup and a lot of varieties are modified to not be affected by pests. What would keep pests away? Some sort of toxin or the pests don't recognize the plant for what it is?

            I don't like the idea of fish genes being spliced onto my tomatoes or whatever other weird combo Monsanto comes up with. You may think it doesn't make a difference, but it does. High fructose corn syrup is not the same thing as simple corn sugar, which isn't the same thing as cane sugar. Your pancreas doesn't recognize it, can't produce the enzymes to digest it and it doesn't trigger any fullness after having eaten it. Same goes for all the molecular modifications of sugar like aspertame. So I won't turn into a radish, but my food is messed up and my cells can break down.

            I'm not ok with it.

      •  Dude, you're confusing the word "pesticide" with (13+ / 0-)

        "insecticide", which, along with "herbicide", is a class of "pesticide".

        As an organic farmer for almost 30 years, I can assure you that all classes of pesticides exert pressure, in a variety of complex ways, on bees and other beneficial insects, whether "targets" or not.  Entire ecosystems are upended.  I invite you to stand beside a thousand acre field that was once alive with an unimaginable variety (which, as Gene Logsdon so succinctly points out, ". . . is not the spice of life, it is the key to life!"), one that you've seen while still alive, and revisit it one week after being "treated" with Roundup.  Then you'll get it, I promise.  

        •  well said farmerhunt n/t (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          KenBee, gerrilea, Larsstephens

          America could have chosen to be the worlds doctor, or grocer. We choose instead to be her policeman. pity

          by cacamp on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 04:11:02 PM PDT

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        •  I AM Confused By Your Logic... (0+ / 0-)

          Are you saying that by killing the so called "weeds" with roundup, the act of eliminating the so called "weeds" harms the bees because the bees no longer have the "weeds" for a food source?

          If this is true, how did the bees survive the 150 years from 1800 to 1950 when people chopped cotton by hand?  No pesticides were used, but millions of acres of fields were kept as close to a desert as possible to get the largest cotton crop possible.

          Surely during your 30 years as an organic farmer you tried to keep the weeds out of your garden, I do.

        •  Killing things we don't like is a really (0+ / 0-)

          bad habit.  We should only kill what we are willing to eat.

          Fear leads people to kill first and ask questions later. We should get over our fears.

          People to Wall Street: "LET OUR MONEY GO"

          by hannah on Wed Apr 25, 2012 at 02:26:44 AM PDT

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    •  Roundup is a dessicant (0+ / 0-)

      It dries  - dehydrates the hell out of a plant.  It would be interesting to see a study showing a link between the acting agent that dehydrates the plant in Roundup and the same agent working on the bees.  I haven't seen any and I'm not sure there would be a valid connection, but maybe there is.

      Well, I guess I don't know what you mean by "equal justice under the law." - Bushy McSpokesperson

      by gatorcog on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 02:51:09 PM PDT

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      •  Glyphosate (Roundup) Is Not A Dessicant... (1+ / 0-)
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        It may appear to be one because the leaves shrivel and die off.  Roundup inhibits the enzyme EPSP synthase.  Without this enzyme the plant is not able to produce necessary proteins that are essential for plant growth.

        Some herbicides prevent photosynthesis.

        I doubt that bees have the enzyme EPSP synthase, so they shouldn't be impacted by glyphosate (Roundup).

        •  From Occupy Monsanto site: (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          Bees Harmed By Neonicotinoid Pesticides, Studies Show

          Scientists have discovered ways in which even low doses of widely used pesticides can harm bumblebees and honeybees, interfering with their homing abilities and making them lose their way.

          “In North America, several bumblebee species which used to be common have more or less disappeared from the entire continent,” while in Britain, three species have become extinct, he said in a statement.

          “So far, they (the procedures) mostly require manufacturers to ensure that doses encountered on the field do not kill bees, but they basically ignore the consequences of doses that do not kill them but may cause behavioral difficulties,” he said in a statement.

          WE face the very real possibility of the collapse of our entire ecosystem and the death of most life on this planet from these "uncontrolled experiments" being carried out by companies that should be de-listed and their executives be put on trial for crimes against humanity. And you'd have a debate on the minutea of one enzyme blocker?

          Please try to see the bigger picture here.

          -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

          by gerrilea on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 11:24:34 PM PDT

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          •  Unfortunately, we define crime as an (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            intentional act.  Unintended consequences and accidents don't count, regardless of the fact they do more harm than criminal acts.
            Think how much collateral damage we left behind in Iraq.

            People to Wall Street: "LET OUR MONEY GO"

            by hannah on Wed Apr 25, 2012 at 02:38:42 AM PDT

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            •  That depends doesn't it? (0+ / 0-)

              Manslaughter charges.

              It was an accident that I bought off the EPA & USDA investigators that accidentally deleted the "anomalous" study results.

              As for the "collateral damage" in Iraq, that was a known consequence of bombing hospitals and water treatment facilities....

              I do understand your point but the "GRAS" (Generally Recognized As Safe) designation/labeling is not an accident either.  It's a way for corporations to skirt any legitimate testing of their products for actual safety before they go onto the market.

              Árpád Pusztai's studies almost 20 yrs ago proved Monsanto's GMO products were dangerous.  He was discredited, lost his job, tenure and was run out of town for telling the truth.

              That was no accident either.

              -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

              by gerrilea on Wed Apr 25, 2012 at 04:42:58 PM PDT

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        •  The first I ever heard of Roundup (1+ / 0-)
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          it was touted as a way to get rid of cattails in a lake.  When I suggested it would be better to pull the cattails out with the roots, it was explained by the environmental protection people they couldn't do that because they cattails would be so laden with pollutants they'd taken out of the water contaminated by road run-off that they couldn't take them to the dump. So, I asked what was the problem with just leaving them there and letting them filter the heavy metals etc. out of the water.  That brought us to the real reason for "cleaning" out the lake -- the cattails were making it hard for fishermen to catch fish.  Which, if the waters were polluted with urban run-off, people should eat anyway.

          Sport fishing, IMHO, is killing for sport -- not an edifying human attribute.

          People to Wall Street: "LET OUR MONEY GO"

          by hannah on Wed Apr 25, 2012 at 02:35:59 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I stand corrected, thank you n/t (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          in the Trees

          Well, I guess I don't know what you mean by "equal justice under the law." - Bushy McSpokesperson

          by gatorcog on Wed Apr 25, 2012 at 12:42:56 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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