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View Diary: The rise of extremists in Europe; The death of neoliberalism (184 comments)

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  •  I'm sure there is a script (35+ / 0-)

    but I think it is more historical than anything else.
    I don't believe that our owners are as smart as some people might think.

    “Take not from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned.” - President Thomas Jefferson

    by gjohnsit on Fri Apr 27, 2012 at 06:12:41 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Oh, I think they may be that smart in a sense. (7+ / 0-)

      Some have set up their foreign enclaves to retire from any conflagration.  Let the lower classes battle it out in their absence, and then re-emerge to claim the remnants.  What we're seeing now, while they are still in-country, is the concerted effort to scratch any last profits they can out of the ground or out of consumers before the whole thing falls.

      Others -- a step down from that group -- may stay, armed to the teeth with their hardware to suppress any uprising, to make sure there's something for the escapees to come back to reclaim.

      Too dark?

      •  What foreign enclaves? (45+ / 0-)

        Right now they are raping pretty much the entire world. If Europe goes down it will depress the entire world economy, which will cause more shaky economies in Latin America and Asia goes down too.

          This reminds me a lot of the Great Depression. All their schemes ended up in complete destruction almost everywhere. Cleverness and greed are not the same thing as being smart.

        “Take not from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned.” - President Thomas Jefferson

        by gjohnsit on Fri Apr 27, 2012 at 06:37:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Not really as it seems to be a fairly solid (7+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gjohnsit, Marie, mookins, Dave925, tacet, sb, G2geek

        plan for those who are completely amoral.  These are the kind of people who would take one look at the 9/11 conspiracy theories and say "I wish we could pull something off like that" rather than the usual "that's crazy".  In fact, this (fictional) dialogue seems kind of appropriate.

        A:  the rioting is intensifying to the point where we may not be able to contain it.
        B: Why contain it? Let it spill over the schools and churches, let the bodies pile up in the streets. In the end they'll beg us to save them.

        There is no saving throw against stupid.

        by Throw The Bums Out on Fri Apr 27, 2012 at 07:19:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's a tried and true approach (20+ / 0-)

          Faced with a growing  militant left-wing social movement in the 70s, the Italian hard right concocted the "strategy of tension".  This included numerous terrorist attacks, purported to be by "leftist" groups that in fact were carried out by both government and private agents on behalf of the right-wing conspirators.  Most notorious was the bombing of the Bologna railroad station in which dozens were killed.  The strategy of tension did succeed in causing an anti-leftist "backlash", and by the time the truth came out a decade later, the historical damage was done, the organizations and movements which had had been falsely blamed or associated with the attacks had been destroyed, and rightist hegemony preserved.

          The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike from sleeping under bridges. ~ Anatole France

          by ActivistGuy on Fri Apr 27, 2012 at 07:53:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well, fortunately creation of a nanotech (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            sb, G2geek

            plague that can only be temporarily stopped by a special "vaccine" (actually a digitally signed code module that instructs the "virus" to hibernate for a month) is beyond our technology for the moment but I am sure there are plenty of other tactics that could be used.  The hard part would be avoiding getting caught considering that all sorts of fancy surveillance tech is now in the hands of the average person.

            There is no saving throw against stupid.

            by Throw The Bums Out on Fri Apr 27, 2012 at 08:13:17 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Doesn't really work that way. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Dave925

              To spread, the nanos have to replicate, which introduces an opportunity for mutation ( or out-of-tolerance manufacture- whatever).

              In an infinite universe (and when we're talking viri, this one may as well be- they're quick.), eventually a defect appears which prevents the nano from being deactivated. The extra production cycles cause this nano to become dominant, and the whole world dies- or we find a different deactivation code which does work on these nanos.

              Ya get to that scale, "alive" and "dead" become very difficult to distinguish.

              •  That assuming that the "mutations" (0+ / 0-)

                occur at a rate high enough that they would happen within the length of time necessary for the plan to work.  Given the amount of nanos necessary it wouldn't be too hard to figure out the rate of mutation and construct them such that that rate is extended.  Alternately there could be some other sort of containment mechanism built in.  It's tough to say exactly what that would look like, but it might be a risk that some people would be willing to take.  What would be most likely, assuming that this far fetched scenario were to actually happen, is that there would be multiple fail safes and no single mutation would overcome all of them.  We know enough about evolution that we could likely design this.

                There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                by AoT on Fri Apr 27, 2012 at 03:06:19 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  No, the plague would only infect and replicate (0+ / 0-)

                in people (and even then only enough to kill) as well as presumably have sophisticated self check systems.  Would have to be pretty sophisticated and fairly large (closer to bacteria or red blood cell size) though.

                There is no saving throw against stupid.

                by Throw The Bums Out on Fri Apr 27, 2012 at 04:56:22 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  even simpler: cut back sanitation & vaccination. (0+ / 0-)

              The way to get a plague isn't by designing nanotech blah-blah but by cutting back on:

              1)  Potable water treatment,
              2)  Maintenance of sewer lines under the streets,
              3)  Garbage collection,
              4)  Street cleaning, and
              5)  Vaccination.

              Notice the proliferation of anti-vaccine bullshit lately?

              Notice how the maintenance of infrastructure is always one of the first things slated for budget cuts?

              Notice how foreclosed properties are allowed to let their swimming pools become enormous mosquito-breeding ponds?  Even a single pool can breed a plague of disease-carrying mosquitos sufficient to spread encephalitis etc. over a 5-mile radius. (If you have one of these in your neighborhood, pour used motor oil on the water in a layer a half inch deep; this will kill the mosquito larvae.)

              Let's be really clear about this:  "social darwinism" isn't leftist hyperbole, it's right on target.  The plutocracy pays "lip service" to creationism and similar religious dogma but behind the scenes is fully committed to the bastardized version of natural selection called "survival of the fittest," where they view themselves as "the fittest."  

              Cutting back sanitation & vaccination leads to the proliferation of epidemic and endemic diseases, and accomplishes the same thing as nanotech bugs but with plausible deniability.

              Count on it.  

              "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

              by G2geek on Fri Apr 27, 2012 at 07:46:11 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Historically the opposite happens (9+ / 0-)

          The 1% wants a dependant populace, so all decision making and control is taken away.  Complacency and then dependancy evolve into lethargy.  Then, when faced with a crisis, a proper response cannot be formed: lethargic and dis-interested virutal or real slaves don't fight for their masters, and the 1% neither frees up nor teaches its dependants how to fight as they fear loss of control.  It is how civilizations fall - in the end no-one gives a damn.

          We aren't at that point, this can take a long long time to play out.  But if anyone is writing this script they are writing a train wreck for all.

      •  hardly dark enough. (0+ / 0-)

        If anyone's still reading this diary and is in the mood for some serious doomer-porn, just ask and I'll be glad to oblige.

        It gets quite a bit worse than most folks here are imagining.

        "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

        by G2geek on Fri Apr 27, 2012 at 07:54:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I suspect (6+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AoT, gjohnsit, Dave925, sb, ladyjames, G2geek

      they thought they could control the monster they were creating. They also thought the left was dead and they could get away with things without interference from that quarter. Evidence leads one to suspect they were wrong.

      •  They thought the left was dead because (8+ / 0-)

        the only well known leftist ideology left was Anarchism.  That's where they fucked up, they thought they had sewed enough fear of anarchism that it could never take hold as a growing ideology.  They believed all the propaganda about anarchists and what we stand for and they thought that they could end any threat using the same methods they did in the sixties and seventies.

        There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

        by AoT on Fri Apr 27, 2012 at 08:46:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Too soon to conclude that "they" (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cslewis, sb

          are losing this round.  So far, "they" were routed only in Tunisia and Egypt and that was only briefly until "they" figured out how to use the impulse for freedom and fairness to their own advantage.  It was quite remarkable to me to observe how quickly "they" got back on their feet and quashed the whole Arab Spring thing -- and with the willing support of the left in the US and France.

          •  The arab spring isn't over (4+ / 0-)

            although it isn't as active as it once was.
            Egypt is still active, as is Syria and Yemen.
            And you forgot to mention Libya

            “Take not from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned.” - President Thomas Jefferson

            by gjohnsit on Fri Apr 27, 2012 at 09:31:27 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You and I apparently saw the unfolding (0+ / 0-)

              of very different Arab Springs.  FWIW -- armed insurrections funded/supported by Saudi Arabia and/or western powers to take down regimes/dictators that those powers has nothing to do with what occurred over a year ago in Tunisia and Egypt and since then, at least in Egypt, the same old forces are in power and life for the people has gotten worse.    

              Notice you didn't mention Bahrain.  That's where the Arab Spring moved after Egypt.  And was effectively killed.  

              •  Re: (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                sunny skies, G2geek

                Bahrain was almost completely crushed. But even there they are still having demonstrations.
                Egypt  has fallen short of promise, but there have been gains and the people are still fighting.
                The fights in Syria, Yemen, and Libya are of a very different character (much more violent), but they are still fighting against the status quo and for more rights. There have been gains in Yemen and Libya. More importantly, they aren't over.

                 Yes, things aren't as promising as they were 8-10 months ago, but the story isn't over. Don't be surprised if a couple more dictators will fall.

                “Take not from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned.” - President Thomas Jefferson

                by gjohnsit on Fri Apr 27, 2012 at 10:14:59 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Reports out of Egypt seem consistent with this (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  G2geek

                  from the The Guardian in January:

                  When people took to Egypt's streets in January 2011, they were bound together by a deep hatred of the Mubarak regime rather than a common vision of what demands for "bread, freedom and social justice" would mean in policy and practice. A year on, the situation is worse economically, political space is more constrained than ever, and social justice is framed in even more exclusionary terms.
                  The regime lives on without the Mubaraks.  On women's rights/freedoms/economic justice, it's even more dire.

                  Deeply troubling that you can blithely state:

                  Bahrain was almost completely crushed.
                  At or near 70% of that population is legally and economically second-class.  They protested peaceably in demand for greater democracy and less monarchal power.  And who was it that "crushed" the aspirations of the people through violent means?  (hint: the same ones that have been exploiting the unrest throughout the region.  sometimes crushing and sometimes facilitating the protesters.)

                   

          •  I agree, I was just talking about why they thought (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Marie

            the radical left was dead.

            There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

            by AoT on Fri Apr 27, 2012 at 09:38:33 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  the twists and turns of history (8+ / 0-)

      If you look back on politics in Europe, and elsewhere (south and central America for example) you get the impression that there is a recurring pattern where the oligarchy can sometimes exert control but can't moderate their inevitable feeding frenzy and then lose it completely as entire nations revolt and swing away in new directions. In fact, we may be witnessing the beginning of a new political era in Europe. Maybe it will lead to a real socialist revolution (or at least a tame Euro version). One can only hope.

      Come to think of it, the proponents of the concept of disaster capitalism don't consider the possibility that in an economic meltdown the public might go against the capitalists and take back control and improve their own lot. That has happened recently (see Venezuela, Bolivia, Arab Spring, etc) but it seems to require a sufficiently aware and politically engaged population. Europe has that, whereas the US doesn't - yet. Keep up the good work OWS!

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