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View Diary: We Are a Vision of the Future, On the Black Bloc: Part II (142 comments)

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  •  Could you give me an example of what you mean? (0+ / 0-)

    I don't understand the question.

    There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

    by AoT on Sun May 27, 2012 at 12:36:24 PM PDT

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    •  I asked what mechanism you have in place to (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      condorcet

      ensure that the greediest among us do not gain power. You answered that you correct that with collective ownership, but that doesn't answer the question.

      You say that in your vision, we are all equals. That's a lovely thought, but human nature tells us that we will never eliminate greed among humans.

      So, without any authority, how do you enforce your vision of equality? What mechanism do you have in place to make sure that the greediest among us don't amass power? Collective ownership does not answer that question, it begs it.

      You say that if we take away their power it eliminates their power. Without any government or authority, what eliminates their power? What stops them from corrupting your system of collective ownership?

      Okay, let's put it this way. Let's use the "anarchists won't take out the trash" example. Your answer is collective ownership.

      Well, that may be fine. I am part owner, but I still don't feel like taking out the trash. So I pay someone to do it for me. I mean, we all presumably have food and other goods that can be traded. So I offer a kid down the street to take the trash out and I'll give him a pineapple whenever he does. So, he does it. (Note, I can't get someone else to do it for me out of the kindness of their heart. They are going to want some kind of currency.)

      So he's essentially now my employee, providing services that I pay for. What structure do you have in place to make sure that we remain equals, and not two people with an imbalanced and unequal relationship?

      P.S. I am not a crackpot.

      by BoiseBlue on Sun May 27, 2012 at 12:54:26 PM PDT

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      •  See? I asked this question almost two hours ago (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT

        And none of the people advocating for anarchy can answer it.

        P.S. I am not a crackpot.

        by BoiseBlue on Sun May 27, 2012 at 01:50:12 PM PDT

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        •  It was a nice day and I decided to spend it (0+ / 0-)

          not on the internet.  I don't begrudge you this comment because I've made the same a million times.

          There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

          by AoT on Sun May 27, 2012 at 11:19:31 PM PDT

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        •  Maybe it is because you want a process (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          joe wobblie

          or "mechanism" for doing something. The question that is more important is what is that something.

          AOT was talking about economic equality. That could mean many different things depending upon your vision. It could, for example, mean that instead of for profits there are community owned entities like banks, like health care services, like schools, like utilities (or like utilities USED to be). But you could also have income redistribution, or you could have resource allocations, or both using some kind of tax structure. Remember it isn't necessarily so that you lose structure, more that your structure is close to home rather than imposed from some lofty capital building.

          Remember too, Ghandi's big thing about employment which is another way you could look at AOT's equality. Everybody is provided with gainful employment and the community and the individual is much better for that. The HOW is decided by the community. But the NEED is decided by the vision and the integrity of the members. What has been truly lacking in our communities is the "vision thing" and the lack of ethics and integrity.

          What would happen, for example, if we owned up to the fact that consumerism is killing us? What would happen if we owned up to the fact that our demand for beef is killing us? What would happen if we owned up to the fact that our government is not protecting us, but opening the gates to harm to us, via FDA and oil extraction and such?

          But before that could happen, we would have to pull our focus in on something that has not be allowed in the public discourse. It would mean that we have to have more and more diaries like AOT, where we explore the heretofore less explored ideas.

          We desperately need to pay more attention to that local structure anyway. We are in imminent danger of being ALECed to death by the Kochs.

          To live a creative life, we must lose our fear of being wrong. -Joseph Chilton Pearce

          by glitterscale on Mon May 28, 2012 at 11:14:26 AM PDT

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      •  Well, there's a number of things that stop (0+ / 0-)

        the accumulation of power.  Let me address an important point first.

        (Note, I can't get someone else to do it for me out of the kindness of their heart. They are going to want some kind of currency.)
        Actually there are plenty of examples of people doing social goods for reasons that are neither out of the kindness of their heart nor for currency.  The pay off, since you seem to think that every action requires a pay off, is that you live in a better society because of what you do.

        Greed requires a social structure that enforces private ownership of property.  If we remove social support for private ownership of property, as opposed to possession, then greed will be minimized.

        There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

        by AoT on Sun May 27, 2012 at 11:18:28 PM PDT

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