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View Diary: The Nuclear Industry has Melted in Japan & France (168 comments)

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  •  I agree with regard to BWR's. n/t (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rja, Joieau

    Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight! Clean Coal Is A Clinker!

    by JeffW on Mon May 07, 2012 at 09:08:50 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  We know that PWRs (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cany, Russgirl, Calamity Jean

      also melt and explode, so they need to be phased out as well, but that can be offset over a period of time depending on real evaluation of conditions and threats at each individual facility. Except for the ones with already pre-breached containments, like Crystal River and Davis-Besse (plus honest inspections of all others). Every single one of those must be shut down and never restarted. Certainly we shouldn't be building any new ones of any design, the technology has amply proven itself way too dangerous. Fortunately, we can't afford them, so right now it's just boatloads of cash making the usual rounds for 'new' nukes that are never going to actually be built. Cash flow - the name of the nuclear game.

      There must also be regulatory requirement to force nukes to immediately begin transferring ALL their 5+ year old spent fuel to dry casks. They don't do this now because the dry casks are so expensive, but that's not a good reason to leave it laying about in glorified swimming pools for 20-30 years.

      If forced to actually spend some money on doing what they should have been required to do all along, nuclear utilities would quickly get out of the business and move on to something more lucrative for them and much safer for us. I'm fine with that, and Haliburton, KBR and the others could make lots of money decommissioning them.

      •  Um, you only need to immerse spent... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Calamity Jean

        ...fuel for 5 years, to let it cool. The big thing is we need a secure place for the dry casks after they are loaded, rather than have them remaining in place on power company property. And it should not be a place that renders them inaccessible, like Yucca Mountain, so you can't spot problems and act.

        Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight! Clean Coal Is A Clinker!

        by JeffW on Mon May 07, 2012 at 10:14:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Inaccessible? (0+ / 0-)

          Huh? Spent nuclear fuel loaded into Yucca Mountain must be accessible by law. From the Nuclear Waste Policy Act of 1982:

          DISPOSAL OF SPENT NUCLEAR FUEL

          SEC. 122. Notwithstanding any other provision of this subtitle, any repository constructed on a site approved under this subtitle shall be designed and constructed to permit the retrieval of any spent nuclear fuel placed in such repository, during an appropriate period of operation of the facility, for any reason pertaining to the public health and safety, or the environment, or for the purpose of permitting the recovery of the economically valuable contents of such spent fuel. The Secretary shall specify the appropriate period of retrievability with respect to any repository at the time of design of such repository, and such aspect of such repository shall be subject to approval or disapproval by the Commission as part of the construction authorization process under subsections (b) through (d) of section 114.

          This "period of operation" is expected to extend to about a century after the last fuel has been loaded into the repository. This time period is used for monitoring to ensure that everything goes as planned in the license application.
        •  That's what I said. (3+ / 0-)

          They only need to 'cool' for 1 year before they can be transferred to dry cask filled with inert gas, but NRC requires 5 years. But because casking is such an expensive operation that would cut into the "Cash Cow" aspect of these rustbucket old nukes (plus many facilities aren't licensed to store the casks on-site), they mostly leave it sitting in the pool or transfer to a common pool for decades.

          It doesn't matter how long spent fuel has been sitting in a pool, it is still deadly radioactive for AT LEAST 10,000 years. Some "hope" the current casks will last a hundred years before leaking. But it's not like much work has or is being done to design better and require utilities to actually do the work. It would cost too much.

          •  Cheap fuel (6+ / 0-)

            That's what I don't get about the reasoning of the nukes only crowd.  Their basic point is that the fuel is cheap and energy dense.

            But try to get them to project the discount to present value cost of storing and monitoring that fuel for a few hundred years and you never get an answer -- other than that future technology will make spent fuel useful in home nuclear "fission man" food processors, or something like that.

            •  Meh. I'm waiting for my (5+ / 0-)

              Mister Fusion coffemaker. Fission is SO last century!!! §;o)

              •  I'm actually pretty sure I remember Nnadir (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                translatorpro, Joieau

                writing that he wouldn't mind having a dry cask containing spent fuel in his yard snuggling up to his house to provide additional heating.

                •  Not surprised. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  HamdenRice, translatorpro

                  There's a nice repository in South Carolina that would no doubt pay him well to live in the guard shack. I think that's an excellent job for him.

                  •  Well, you job as "Health Physicist" must be going (3+ / 1-)
                    Recommended by:
                    bryfry, Mcrab, SpeedyGonzales
                    Hidden by:
                    HamdenRice

                    badly since it would appear that you don't know the half-lives of any nuclides in nuclear fuel.

                    Joy Busey, clown, gets every half-life in the nuclide table wrong.

                    Not one, not two, every, single one

                    Since you hate nuclear science from a position of total and complete ignorance, we can assume that your abilities as a human resources co-ordinator would easily match your (obviously fraudulent) credentials as a "health physicist."

                    Fortunately you and your stupid friend have never held positions of responsibility and thus would have no idea about the half-lives of any important nuclide, which goes without saying.

                    I have never met a rote anti-nuke who knows his or her ass from a hole in the ground.

                    •  It's like the old commercial (0+ / 0-)

                      "I'm not a health physicist, but I play one on DailyKos."

                      But, NNadir, you forget ... she's a (self-published) author on the subject. ;-)

                      Quid novi ex Africa

                      by bryfry on Tue May 08, 2012 at 11:30:16 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Aw, did I hit (0+ / 0-)

                      ums widdie feewings hard? Poor baby...

                      •  Oh, I wouldn't put it that way, exactly. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        bryfry

                        I'm something called "a grown up."

                        And, as a "grown up" I can hardly cheer (like a clown) for killing people.

                        Did you know you, um, "health physicist" that 3.3 million people die each year from air pollution?

                        Another thing I know, um, "health physicist" who knows no physics, is where the Home Page of the Journal of the Health Physics Society is?

                        Um you don't?

                        Let me help you, here it is:  Journal of the Health Physics Society.

                        One may also find at the website of the Society many position papers on nuclear power and other news related to radiation science.

                        As a piece of sad news, there was a fine obituary of the great scientist Bernard L. Cohen, who fought a stupid anti-nuke in the 1980's called Ernest Sternglass.

                        Unsurprisingly this obituary has not been read by the anti-nuke society, since in general anti-nukes are ignorant of the contents of scientific journals.

                        I may write a diary about Dr. Cohen.  I hadn't realized he'd died.

                        One can search the "authors" index there.    I searched "Busey" and unsurprisingly, there were zero hits.

                        Most moral cripples fail to understand my generalized hatred of ignorance.

                        Not surprisingly, being intellectual cripples as well as moral cripples, they are unable to grasp what my sig line means, although it is powerfully true.

                        •  Heh. Ignorance indeed. n/t (0+ / 0-)
                          •  You bet, clown. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            bryfry

                            Ignorance indeed.

                          •  The designation "clown" (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            HamdenRice

                            is not the insult you believe it to be, as I have indeed been a professional clown for 25 years before I stopped performing regularly. Since I am the one who got to design and make the costuming, maintain the props, build the puppets and staging and direct the shows, I refused to juggle. Won't eat fire either. Daughter and grandsons do that stuff, so I don't have to.

                            Never claimed to belong to the "health physics society" either, which you'd know if you'd been paying attention. That's an industry insider/DOE construct, a.k.a. irrelevant. Unless some industry consortium of greedheads want to do some wool-pulling over ostensible regulatory proposals need more acronyms than just NEI to attach to some bullshit scheme or other. The usual type of corporate/governmental circle jerk. Meh.

                            You like to think you're being clever but you're not. Quite the contrary - when you and your #1 Fan bry-guy start in on this crap you both end up looking like way bigger fools than me. Which just goes to show that some of the classic characterizations and skits are still as funny now as they were when Tutankhamen's fool was his most treasured friend and advisor.

                            I left the nuclear industry exactly 1 month after I entered it more than 33 years ago. Both entry and exit accomplished very much on purpose and for a very specific regulatory-related purpose. That was more than a year before your heroes murdered my brother while trying to murder my husband. Who both had considerably more experience in the industry than I did. That's really not something y'all should be proud of in a place like this, but there's no accounting for some folks' oversized egos.

                            You lost your masks before you got past the step-off pad. Are fooling exactly no one.

                          •  Well, we agree on something. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            bryfry, Mcrab

                            You're a clown.

                            The word "clown" means what it means to me, and I'm not about to change that meaning because an anti-intellectual anti-science type wishes to substitute a new definition for the one that I apply when I say you are a clown

                            I don't give a rat's ass how you define clown, just as the world physics community doesn't give a rat's ass that you have announced that the half-life of Pu-239 is 480,000 years.

                            Joy the clown's half-life of Pu-239: 480,000 years.

                            Brookhaven National Laboratory's Half Life for Pu-239: 24,110 years.

                            I have made it clear repeatedly that I belive that every member of "Nuclear free DKos" is scientifically, morally and intellectually incompetent.

                            In the time since this afternoon that you've been cheering for Fukushima - cheering gleefully about a 9.0 earthquake and a 15 meter tsunami that killed 20,000 - zero from radiation - more than 2,000 people died from air pollution.

                            Now you wish to tell me about the circus?

                            Well, I think I've made it very clear that I'm not interested.

                            I don't like circuses, because I'm serious.

                            Unlike the intellectually bereft members of "Nuclear Free DKos" I give a rat's ass about the future, and with the concentration of dangerous fossil fuel waste now approaching 400 ppm, it's dire.

                            Do you know what dire means?

                            Ignorance, fear, and superstition have always damaged the futures they've created. That was true during the black plague; it was true during the various acts of genocide that have taken place; and it true now.

                            To be sure, I personally hold clowns - a type of clown I despise - responsible for the deaths that will take place from air pollution tomorrow.

                            By the way:  Of course you're not a member of the Health Physics Society.  Membership is reserved for, um, "health physicists."

                            Every single word you write shows that you neither know nor care about health, nor do you know or care about physics.   Therefore you are definitely not a member of the Health Physics Society.

                            In fact, you clearly hate physics, which is why you mangle it so badly.

                            Thanks - I think - for the rare bit of honesty.

                            Have a nice day tomorrow, and try not to think at all - as is par for the course - about the roughly 9,000 people, nearly half under the age of 5 who will die tomorrow from air pollution.

                    •  HR for gratuitous insult (0+ / 0-)

                      You seem unable to discuss the issues without using insults, like the word, "clown."

                      •  Can't you read? (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        NNadir

                        This person was a professional clown for 25 years. See her comment above.

                        But I guess any excuse for HR abuse works for some people.

                        Quid novi ex Africa

                        by bryfry on Wed May 09, 2012 at 07:12:51 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Um, no in fact, he can't. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          bryfry

                          The bloviator in question has made it very clear on thousands of occassions that he, um, can't read.

                          You know I checked the search tool here, searching my name as it was used in posts in the last three months, and found I was mentioned 107 in comments here, and, um 14 come from this sick puppy.

                          This is why anonymity on websites is a good thing, since some of these losers can actually go postal.

                          Just saying...

                          Probably the guy's relatively harmless, poorly read, poorly educated surely, but harmless.

                          (One hopes anyway.)

                          It's pretty funny though that he's defending the clown who says (very often) that she is, in fact, a professional clown.

                          And, of course, you and I agree that the clown is a clown and actually find ourselves agreeing - at least in the denotative sense - that the clown is a clown, although I'm sure that our connative reasons for agreeing on the point of whether the clown is a clown are, um, shall we say, different?

                          But I'm going to have a lot of fun with the clown who is a clown and her list of radioelements and their half-lives.

                          I really, really, really wonder where on earth she got that.

                          It's a classic, especially since she spelled out words like "millions."

                          The best part is that it's a comment and not a diary, so she can't go back and edit it.

                          I'm collecting "Nuclear Free DKos" incredible comments.   They're great.   One could have a field day with them.   Maybe I'll post them over on Charles's website.

                          But the clown who is a clown, hers is the best ever, especially with "We all die in the end - nobody gets outta here alive."

                          Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the clown who is a clown just spend a little more than three decades having a conniption about the billions and billions of deaths from Three Mile Island?

                          By the way, I pulled some fun papers from "Health Physics" and may choose to write a diary about some of these too.

                          I also saw that my teacher - even though I never met him - Bernard L. Cohen died.   He was 87.   He was just one of those rare guys, so clearheaded that he could make you change directions pi radians.

                          I got your note by the way.   Maybe you got mine back.  No sweat.   When you have time...

                          I have a cool paper from this month's Industrial and Engineering Chemistry Research that I'd like to share with you some time, although it's kind of chemist stuff, but it's a problem that's been on my mind for sometime now, the thermodyanmics of gas phased mixtures.   I'd like to hear you "ramble" about it.    It's a wild case, especially for someone who grew up with Dalton's law of partial pressures.   I've been messing around with these cubics in my slow and plodding and primitive way.   It's wild.

                          •  Yes (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            NNadir

                            I saw that Cohen passed away last March. His work lives on.

                            I know that he took a lot of flak for his radon-related ecologic studies, but his work served to convince me that epidemiologists are simply bad at math. His speculations of a hormetic effect from radiation in his studies was on shaky ground, I admit, but what the epidemiologists fail to understand is that a linear dose response can be tested with rather crude study designs. It's just the way that the math works out, and it doesn't require very sophisticated mathematical analysis to realize this.

                            I could almost forgive them for this being over their heads — after all, not everyone can be good at math — but then these same epidemiologists turn around and use this linear model to "predict" 4000, 5000, 9000, etc., "excess of cancer and leukemia deaths due to radiation from the Chernobyl accident." (For example, see Cardis et al., Estimated long term health effects of the Chernobyl accident One decade after Chernobyl—Summing up the Consequences of the Accident, Proc. EU/IAEA/WHO Conf., Vienna, April, 1996, pp. 241-71.) That is simply unforgivable.

                            Thank goodness that nuclear physics is not as intellectually sloppy as epidemiology.

                            Quid novi ex Africa

                            by bryfry on Thu May 10, 2012 at 05:00:42 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Well, I don't know about hormesis, but one of... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            bryfry

                            ...my chief concern about nuclear energy is related, that being that all life on earth evolved in the presence of radioactivity and that it has always been present.

                            You may recall I wrote a diary that touched on it a little less than a year ago:

                            How Radioactive is the ocean.

                            One might suspect that our anti-nuke friends Harvey, the clown and the clown's obsessive friend - were they able to read, which apparently they can't - might have stopped swimming, but one never knows, does one?

                            Seriously I have always thought that life may depend on radioactivity in subtle but little appreciated ways, and I think the case is pretty clear that for the biosphere in general, diversity might well indeed have been involved with it.

                            One sees those curves for actinide recycling wherein the total planetary radioactivity falls below the activity of uranium ores

                            after a about a thousand years because of fission work, and one is inclined to wonder.

                            An interesting sidelight to our adventures here is that our good friends in "Nuclear Free DKos" not only hate the science that we know they

                            know nothing about, nuclear science, but they also almost uniformly hate another science they know nothing about, genetic science.

                            We have a fine writer on genetic technology here, MEM and she has adventures much like ours.

                            The clown in particular, and her little uneducated friend have been spectacular on this point.   The uneducated friend of hers once announced that he was an expert on genetics as a result of having walked through a field.

                            Seriously.    I kid you not.

                          •  I'm a follower of her (MEM's) diaries. n/t (0+ / 0-)

                            Quid novi ex Africa

                            by bryfry on Thu May 10, 2012 at 01:33:29 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

      •  don't forget the mess at san onofre!!! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Russgirl

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