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View Diary: All the words Jesus Christ spoke about gay people in one place (533 comments)

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  •  This is where we differ... (4+ / 0-)

    I think that the New Testament is actually a homophobic text.  

    Non-asshole Christians have done an admirable job explaining away the damning passages, but they are ultimately just polishing a turd.

    Also:

    if we can explain to them using sound theological information, the reasonable can be reached..
    I don't think that anyone who uses the Bible as their main source of morals can be considered "reasonable."

    My point is simply that the amount of people who might be swayed by this type of religious argument is very slim.  Most people who use the Bible as their justification for hating Gay people are really doing just that, looking for a justification.  Take Jesus away, and they will just come up with something else.

    •  i see where you're coming from and agree... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BradyB, gooderservice, raster44

      when trying to win over a person of faith, however, i don't think you can appeal to mere secular morality (unfortunately).

      on a personal level, i don't see the NT as homophobic in the least (when the whopping 3 verses are interpreted accurately)...it is, however, very conflicted on a number of issues (misogyny being a prime example...paul talks out of both sides of his mouth about women...)

      •  Do tell, (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        liberaldemdave, raster44

        how do you interpret Paul's writings on homosexuality?

        I have not heard this before.

        •  there are 3 verses in the NT... (5+ / 0-)

          ...all attributed to paul.

          in context, using what we know about koine greek and the culture of the time, paul wasn't writing about homosexuality  but rather about certain activities that most of us would find unacceptable...pederasty, infidelity (not as big an issue in the glbt community but it is an issue for many of us) and sexual slavery (generally with young pubescent boys). then, throw in a little temple sex and you have the whole pot of stew.

          none of these things have anything to do with the concept of homosexuality as an orientation or with love being expressed in mutual, supportive relationships...much less as a culture.

          there are tons of works by prominent theologians on the subject, written by both hetero- and glbt authors.

      •  UGH Paul: (3+ / 0-)

        My least fave in the NT.  But since you brought him up I was told by a very conservative Presbyterian minister that there was specutlation among theologians that Paul was gay.  Speculating that the thorn in his side was that he was a homosexual.  I never looked into it, but maybe I'll see if there is anything floating about the nets about it.

        •  there is...i can't remember the author or title (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          MKS, raster44, Cassandra Waites, ladyjames

          but there is at least one book that develops a psychological profile of paul as a self-loathing, homophobic homosexual.

          i have spent most of my adult life  coming to terms with dear paul...lol...for all his wackadoodle ideas about women and marriage, when he "gets it", he's spot on.

          •  What's more likely? (0+ / 0-)

            That S. Paul, who by your own admission, has expounded upon the most profound spiritual truths with astounding poignancy and accuracy, somehow magically goofed about something simple like whether homosexuality is permitted, or that you are wrong?

            Let's use Occam's razor here, people.

          •  liberaldemdave: (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            liberaldemdave

            Interesting, I'll have to google to see if I can find it.  Thanks!!  I never have been able to warm up to Paul at all.  My fave has always been Thomas, the "doubting" one.  Then again I don't put much stock in the bible since it's been retranslated numerous times plus too many contratictions for my liking.  I'm more of a "spiritual" type person than a "religious" type person.  But I do find knowledgable discussions about religion and the bible interesting.

    •  The Da Vinci Code (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Onomastic

      really seemed to shake up a lot of right wingers....

      So, maybe you are right that one should not agree with social conservatgives on basing our individual liberty on the Bible.

    •  It is help for those who doubt. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ahianne, ladyjames, koseighty

      In my opinion the primary purpose of those theological arguments is not to convince right-wingers in the South to accept gay marriage. It should be given as a dogmatical help to those who are Christian and want to believe in the Bible but who, on the other hand, have a deep moral feeling that it is wrong to condemn gays.

      I am sure many of them are in a kind of faith limbo where they are constantly struggling with the supposed letter of God's Law and their own feelings. Without the appropriate exegetical tools and advice, many of those will ultimately succumb to the misguided biblical interpretations they learned in school or church.

      "Stabilizing" any one of them and helping them to stay on our side counts even more in my opinion than convincing a right-winger who is always prone to be swayed back by the next Fox rant anyway. We have to help our own sheep so that they do not get lost in the dogmatic wilderness of misguided faith.

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