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  •  that wasn't my intent. (0+ / 0-)

    But I do think that most people in general are ignorant about these things, and I am skeptical of religiously based claims of knowledge.

    "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

    by AaronInSanDiego on Mon May 14, 2012 at 11:05:45 PM PDT

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    •  it's not really "religious" for me as much as (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AaronInSanDiego

      cultural.  I'm tired of the Christian "understanding" being meekly accepted as the generally valid lets not upset them cultural default.  Fact - there are several million Jews among other indigenous people who practise their own cultural traditions who do not see Christianity as the default in their worldview just within the US alone.

      And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

      by Mortifyd on Tue May 15, 2012 at 12:50:28 AM PDT

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      •  I certainly understand and agree with that, (0+ / 0-)

        and I often point out that common Christan perceptions are not shared by Jews.

        "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

        by AaronInSanDiego on Tue May 15, 2012 at 01:22:30 AM PDT

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      •  Why are Jews not objecting to this distortion? (0+ / 0-)

        I'm asking in all seriousness:  if evangelical Christians are distorting the intent of the Hebrew scriptures so badly in public statements, why aren't rabbis writing op-eds and publicly pointing this out?  It would be very helpful in exposing the agenda of the religious right.

        •  because 2000 years of pogroms (0+ / 0-)

          and antisemitism has a cumulative effect.

          The times that we have spoken out we get killed in the name of Christianity.  Kind of makes it not worth the effort to the community at large after a while - and Evangelicals don't listen to us anyway.  

          They want us to be pieces on their end times board - but they are terrified that we exist because it undermines their insistence they have the one and only Truth - which is ridiculous.

          And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

          by Mortifyd on Tue May 15, 2012 at 12:48:22 PM PDT

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          •  In this country, in this century (0+ / 0-)

            I very much doubt you need fear a pogrom...and seriously?  If you are this upset about your religion being distorted by the Religious Right, then it's time to speak out.

            And if not you, then who?  And if not now, when?  

            •  WTF do you think I am doing? (0+ / 0-)

              Do you seriously think you are the only person who reads these comments?  We are having a conversation that might help someone else understand as they read it - it's not all about you.

              I'm just a single Jew, but I do my part to speak up when I can.  You may think it's not enough, but until you want to bankroll me to do it to your standards - cut me some slack.

              And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

              by Mortifyd on Tue May 15, 2012 at 01:26:29 PM PDT

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              •  The people who need to know this (0+ / 0-)

                Do NOT read DKos, as you well know.   Have you written to your local rabbi asking for him to help you?  Set up a web site?  Written an op-ed for your local paper?  Recruited anyone else to help you?

                Yelling at me is not going to change a thing.  

                •  I'm not yelling at you. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  AaronInSanDiego

                  But you clearly don't understand how Jewish culture works.  We don't have a universal agreement on anything other than Torah is our heritage.  Getting Jews to agree on addressing theological issues we consider ridiculous is like herding cats or teaching pigs to sing.

                  You're effectively asking the Jewish people to collectively say that Christian scholarship is the equivalent of a WIKI on Lost - and not expect to get killed for it.  We're not stupid and we experience antisemitism on a personal level - it's not abstract for a man with a kippah and tzitzit.  

                  And actually a lot of perfectly nice Christians DO read DKOS, and are completely unaware that Jewish people do not feel at all friendly toward their theology, world view or casual assumption that they are right.  

                  If you think I'm wasting your time then piss off - otherwise, don't spend half your reply chastising me for not being you and doing what you think is best.

                  And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

                  by Mortifyd on Tue May 15, 2012 at 02:41:25 PM PDT

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                  •  I do not mean the Christians who read DKos!!!! (0+ / 0-)

                    I meant the GENERAL PUBLIC.  I have said that over and over again - and given that my two best friends are Jewish, I think I know more about "how Jewish culture works" than you think.  

                    I also fail to see why Jewish INDIVIDUALS don't write those letters or op-eds if what you say is indeed the norm among rabbis and theologians, which is what you imply.  Right now, it's sounding a lot more like you're kvetching without being willing to do something about it.

                    •  Did you really pull out my two best friends are??? (0+ / 0-)

                      No you aren't one so no you don't.  In addition - your two friends are not the end all be all of the Jewish theological world, sorry.  

                      You keep telling me that Christians here get it and I should be writing Op Eds - YOU don't even get it.  You don't understand why we don't do things because you're not a Jew.  Your grandpa didn't get his head caved in by a Nazi.  Your Auntie wasn't raped by a soldier in the middle of the night.  These things have cumulative effects on real people you want to just dismiss as silly.  It's not something that just is forgotten, it affects the generations after.  Many Christians hate us.  We know it.  You seem not to.

                      YOU don't get it.

                      Stop wasting my time because you think you have a better way I should make MY point to people.  

                      And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

                      by Mortifyd on Wed May 16, 2012 at 09:59:36 AM PDT

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            •  if you really believe a pogrom isn't possible here (0+ / 0-)

              then you are not living in the reality of someone who is a non-Christian in America.  I've been attacked many times for being a Jew.  I've also been attacked for being a Muslim because some Christians are too stupid to tell the difference.

              And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

              by Mortifyd on Tue May 15, 2012 at 01:28:19 PM PDT

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              •  Please provide a link to any incidents (0+ / 0-)

                Involving organized (or disorganized) mobs rampaging through Jewish neighborhoods, preferably with the collusion of the local police.  

                Otherwise, comparing individual anti-Semitic acts to pogroms is an exaggeration...and no, I'm not Jewish, but I do belong to a religious group that was the target of a terrorist attack.  I realize that this is very small beer compared to what Christians have done to Jews over the century, but then again, almost everything is.

                •  And no, I am not being sarcastic (0+ / 0-)

                  I am genuinely asking if there's been any organized anti-Semitic riots in America in the last 10-15 years.  The closest I can come is the Crown Heights violence, which was a confused and horrible mess that involved racism as well as anti-Semitism.

                  •  yeah, you are. (0+ / 0-)

                    I said one is possible.  I didn't say one had happened in the US.   I guess you just ignore all those diaries about violence, attacks, graffiti etc that Jews have posted here from their own neighbourhoods - and those people in France clearly don't count either.

                    There is a definite rise in both Christian Identity politics and antisemitism.  You can deny it, you can ignore it - but that doesn't mean it's not just under the surface waiting to explode.

                    And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

                    by Mortifyd on Tue May 15, 2012 at 02:44:51 PM PDT

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                    •  What diaries? What incidents? (0+ / 0-)

                      I am genuinely asking, not being sarcastic, because I sure haven't seen anything about Christian Identity loons teaming up with the local police to trash synagogues, kosher butchers, or yeshivas.  

                      Also, we're not talking about France.  We're talking about America.  Specifically, this thread started about right-wing Christians allegedly distorting the Hebrew Scriptures.  I asked why Jews didn't attempt to correct this perception and cultural appropriation on the part of public (especially when it comes to gay rights), and all I've gotten from you is complaints about anti-Semitism and fear of pogroms as to why no one has said a word.

                      I know about Christian Identity.  I know about the ultra-right.  And I don't appreciate being lectured to.

                      •  funny, neither do I (0+ / 0-)

                        There is a search function for diaries.  Put on your thinking cap and use it, it's not my job to chase down Jew diaries for you because you don't believe antisemitism is an actual issue in the US or apparently anywhere else.

                        Jews have been historically killed for standing up to Christianity and saying "Actually, what it says is this."  If you deny that then you don't know anything about the relationship between Jews and Christians over the last 1000 years or so.  The Inquisition.  The burning of Talmuds, Torahs and Jews.  The destruction of yeshivahs, families and communities.

                        Hell it wasn't until Vatican II that the Pope officially said we didn't kill Jesus.  That was in the 1960s - not the 1660s.

                        So yeah, we have our reasons for not telling the world that Christians are full of shit.  We're tired of being killed.  If you don't understand that, then I can't help you.

                        And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

                        by Mortifyd on Wed May 16, 2012 at 02:27:24 PM PDT

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        •  why is this on the shoulders of Jews? (0+ / 0-)

          In my view, people are entitled to their own beliefs, and no one religious view is the correct one. Also, there is not unanimity among Jews as to how the Torah should be interpreted, and no Rabbi has the authority to speak for Jews as a whole, although they are free to express their views, as is anyone.

          "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

          by AaronInSanDiego on Wed May 16, 2012 at 12:15:46 AM PDT

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