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View Diary: Anti-fascists Attack White Nationalists in Chicago Suburb (47 comments)

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  •  These thugs sound like they could be affiliated (14+ / 0-)

    with the Black Bloc. Whoever they are, they have tarnished the NATO protests.

    This sort of vicious behavior is totally unacceptable. I hope that those responsible are caught and prosecuted. This type of mob violence must never be accepted, no matter who the perpetrator, or whom the victim.

    Here's my take on it - the revolution will not be blogged, it has to be slogged. - Deoliver47

    by OIL GUY on Sun May 20, 2012 at 02:34:34 AM PDT

    •  That's diversity of tactics. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      evilrick
      •  What does that mean? (8+ / 0-)

        Do you think it is acceptable to attack the patrons and employees of a restaurant with baseball bats?

        That sounds like felonious assault to me, and I hope the cops catch everyone involved. They are nothing more than criminal hooligans.

        Here's my take on it - the revolution will not be blogged, it has to be slogged. - Deoliver47

        by OIL GUY on Sun May 20, 2012 at 02:59:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  These aren't Panthers, just punks. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        glitterscale

        "Fight the real enemy." -Sinead O'connor

        by mookins on Sun May 20, 2012 at 03:41:59 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  White Power skins never leave (6+ / 0-)

        until they are tired of getting the crap kicked out of them every time they step out on the street.  These are not people who can be persuaded with civil discourse.   The best you can hope for is to get them gone.  

        I have seen it happen multiple times.  It starts with a few seig heils at shows, next thing you know, some poor immigrant is bleeding their life away at a bus stop.  These Anti-Fa folks (not necessarily BB/anarchist types but there can be some overlap) have time and again been the only people to stand up to these boneheads.  Maybe you haven't been in a neighborhood that has been taken over by these idiots.  I saw it happen in both Seattle (NASH) and Atlanta (Confederate Hammerskins) in the late 80's and early 90's.  And each time it wasn't the cops that got rid of them, it was the willingness of a few to confront them with the only thing they understand, violence.  

        These living monuments to fetal alcohol syndrome are not impressed with the concept of non-violence.  Their (non-existent) consciences will never be tweaked.  This isn't about battling pepper spray and nightsticks, this is about not having your forehead placed on a curb awaiting the Doc Marten to the back of your neck.

        I turn on the television, what have I got? The war rages on and it's only 8 o'clock -The King Blues

        by evilrick on Sun May 20, 2012 at 06:05:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Your enthusiastic support for violence (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Satya1

          is a major violation of the rules of this site. While not directly engaged with you, I think it would be inappropriate for me to HR you, but I am going to report this to the admins.

          I think they will take a very dim view of your attitude.

          Here's my take on it - the revolution will not be blogged, it has to be slogged. - Deoliver47

          by OIL GUY on Sun May 20, 2012 at 09:16:25 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  what does your quote mean? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            delver rootnose
            Here's my take on it - the revolution will not be blogged, it has to be slogged. - Deoliver47
            by OIL GUY on Sun May 20, 2012 at 09:16:25 AM PDT
            this is getting weird on some comments when the shit starts coming down people run scared and want to pick the side that does not get them in trouble or looks bad to the ruling class.

            Those that know, do. Those that understand, teach. -Aristotle

            by Hyde Park Johnny on Sun May 20, 2012 at 09:21:35 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It means he admires confrontation when he's not (2+ / 0-)

              involved?

              •  I've had my share of confrontation, but that was (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mookins, Satya1

                long ago. I was in Grant Park in 1968. I deeply regret the damage we inflicted on the Democratic Party and the left in the United States.

                I'm not proud that I helped elect Nixon. I was too immature to see it then. I was another narcissistic adolescent with anger control issues. Fortunately, one can live long enough to achieve a different perspective. I've learned a lot in the fifty years since then.

                Here's my take on it - the revolution will not be blogged, it has to be slogged. - Deoliver47

                by OIL GUY on Sun May 20, 2012 at 11:04:31 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  There's nothing wrong with confrontation, but (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  OIL GUY

                  that's not what this story is about.

                  This is about armed assaults on anybody who happened to be in the way of a group of armed thugs.

                  LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                  by dinotrac on Sun May 20, 2012 at 04:57:30 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  you claim to have been in Grant park in 68... (0+ / 0-)

                  ...and yout you still take the authoritarian lne,  Still support cops busting heads.  You didn't learn anything anything in 68 except maybe how to fall in line.  And the cops in 68 got the response they wanted and nixon was elected and you think it is any different now.

                  We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

                  by delver rootnose on Sun May 20, 2012 at 07:24:40 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Denise's quote (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              OIL GUY, Nowhere Man, Meteor Blades

              was about her observation that on the ground organizing accomplishes more real change than blogging in the echo chamber of the the progressive blogoshere.  And the process is a day by day, inch by inch struggle (slog).  That's my recollection at least.

              I'm not liberal. I'm actually just anti-evil, OK? - Elon James White

              by Satya1 on Sun May 20, 2012 at 10:32:48 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  The quote is about the hard work of grassroots (0+ / 0-)

              organizing, which is the only way to bring about long-term change.

              These violent tactics accomplish nothing other than to tarnish the cause which the perpetrators claim they support. I suspect they are narcissistic adolescents who have not learned impulse control.

              They must be so brave to attack unarmed people with hammers and baseball bats. Give me a break!

              Here's my take on it - the revolution will not be blogged, it has to be slogged. - Deoliver47

              by OIL GUY on Sun May 20, 2012 at 10:59:45 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  And, of course, I'm sure the restaurant (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mookins

          employee was one of the fascists, as was the restaurant's owners (who suffered significant property damage) and there is no possible way any non-fascists were hurt...

          and that's accepting the proposition that there is anything acceptable about jack-booted (metaphorical jack boots, any uniform will do) thugs wailing away on people.

          I hope those pea-brained animals get caught and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

          LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

          by dinotrac on Sun May 20, 2012 at 04:55:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Beating people up is not the way forward (4+ / 0-)

      Society changes when most people want it to, not when black shirted thugs take over.

      I hope these people are found and the legal process kicks in.

      •  It stands to reason... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT, cks175

        That if they had the intelligence on where the meeting was being held, then they probably knew what the meeting was about.  A bunch of neo-nazis are are meeting on the outskirts of the place where thousands of occupy types are gathering for the NATO meeting?  For all we know this attack saved lives.

        I turn on the television, what have I got? The war rages on and it's only 8 o'clock -The King Blues

        by evilrick on Sun May 20, 2012 at 06:41:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Would you feel the same way, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          OIL GUY

          with the same reasoning, if it had been the Chicago Police Department conducting the raid?

          What if it had been the FBI?

          What if the attendees had been... let's say... suspected Black Bloc members, rather than fascists and/or neo-fascists?

          We have a jury system for a reason. It may not be perfect, but it gets us a damned sight closer to establishing justice than vigilantism ever will.

          Let us all have the strength to see the humanity in our enemies, and the courage to let them see the humanity in ourselves.

          by Nowhere Man on Sun May 20, 2012 at 11:42:31 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  but surprise surrise... (0+ / 0-)

            it wasn't the police.  They were all occupies bustin up protests of the establishment.  I find it real currious that police can be quite on the ball with electronic survelience and even infiltrators when it comes to arresting left leaning protest groups, even violent groups, but I have heard jack squat about arrests fro groups like 'operation rescue' and thier fellow travlers when they are involved in murders and arson and bombings.  I guess the 1% and the people who defen them only care when their power is challenged.

            What fun would being rich be if you can't push around the peons once in a while.

            We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

            by delver rootnose on Sun May 20, 2012 at 07:30:35 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I'm not going to pretend that I'm upset here. (0+ / 0-)

        I'm sure that someone affiliated with the anti-Fascist group is reading this, and I'm posting this comment to let them know that there are folks see their action as justifiable self defense of the community as a whole.

        •  justifiable self-defense of the community... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          OIL GUY, Mindful Nature

          The sad thing is, I've heard nearly the same thing said about the KKK.  

          •  The difference of course being that (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            cks175

            the people that were attacked in this case would be the KKK, or close enough.  We're talking about people who go out and beat and kill people for no reason other than their race.  The KKK wanted to "protect" their community from the oppressed, the ARA wants to protect it from the oppressor.  There is a world of difference between the two in my eyes.

            There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

            by AoT on Sun May 20, 2012 at 08:45:11 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  "a world of difference between the two... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              OIL GUY, Nowhere Man

              ...in my eyes".

              Well, of course, it's all about perspective.  But we're talking about justifying mob violence against people for what may very well be nothing more than 1st Amendment protected speech.  It's a well-traveled path, but one that I won't be joining you on.

              •  Simply being violent does not make one into (0+ / 0-)

                the KKK.  I was merely pointing out that this is a false equivalency, not judging the morality of these specific actions.

                There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                by AoT on Sun May 20, 2012 at 09:39:34 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'll grant you that there's a moral difference (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  OIL GUY

                  between attacking someone for their beliefs, and attacking someone for the color of their skin. But it's a very thin difference. And it's a difference between two different shades of evil.

                  I won't say that preemptive violence is always wrong. I will say that the bar where preemptive violence becomes appropriate is very, very high. A civilized society requires every citizen to forswear the impulse to act as judge, jury, and jailer.

                  Let us all have the strength to see the humanity in our enemies, and the courage to let them see the humanity in ourselves.

                  by Nowhere Man on Sun May 20, 2012 at 11:53:26 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  This isn't about people's beliefs (0+ / 0-)

                    it's about their actions.  Specifically the actions of white sepremacists.  The point of targeting these people wasn't that they think a certain way, it's that they take actions based on that that oppress people.

                    There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                    by AoT on Sun May 20, 2012 at 12:11:50 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  And had *these* individuals taken such actions? (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Bill W

                      There is no question that evil things are done by white supremacists. It is questionable whether every white supremacist is equally culpable, either morally or legally. And no individual, no mob, has the right to commit acts of violence that are predicated on a presumption of "yes" answers to these questions.

                      Let us all have the strength to see the humanity in our enemies, and the courage to let them see the humanity in ourselves.

                      by Nowhere Man on Sun May 20, 2012 at 01:02:57 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Given that I have no information (0+ / 0-)

                        on the specific individuals I obviously can't speak to what they have done.

                        There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                        by AoT on Sun May 20, 2012 at 01:07:03 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Then you can't really say... (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Nowhere Man

                          ..."this isn't about people's beliefs, it's about their actions".  
                          Hyde Park Johnny posted some text from ARA describing some of the attendees, and if that's the worst of it, the only thing we can be sure of is that some of them belong to or support racist or neo-nazi groups.  

                          The thing about the "ANTIFA" movement is that it's not about people's actions, it really is about their beliefs and their expression of those beliefs.  "No free speech for fascists" is a popular slogan, and if you examine the meaning of that, it's clear they are an anti-free speech movement.  In their mindset, openly expressing racist views is tantamount to an act of violence, and physical violence to stop such speech is a legitimate response.

                          •  And as much as I sympathize (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Bill W

                            with the desire to beat the crap out of a racist, the claim of legitimacy begs more than a few questions. Like: Do you take a zero-tolerance policy, or do you declare that there's a threshold level of racism, below which no violent response would be justified? If the latter, where is that line, and how do you judge when someone's crossed it? If you take a zero-tolerance approach, then how do you know that a given statement was racist both in intent and meaning?

                            On the whole, I'd rather see racist speech given First Amendment protections than otherwise. But even I agreed that some specific racist speech equated to violence, I'd want to see justice meted out through the court system, not through vigilantism. The court system may be fallible, but vigilantes are even more so.

                            Let us all have the strength to see the humanity in our enemies, and the courage to let them see the humanity in ourselves.

                            by Nowhere Man on Sun May 20, 2012 at 01:36:17 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

          •  IT is a a dangerous and self satisfying justificat (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Bill W, OIL GUY

            justification and all to convenient.

            Courtesy Kos. Trying to call on the better angels of our nature.

            by Mindful Nature on Sun May 20, 2012 at 09:44:28 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  let me see (0+ / 0-)

          A bunch of people whose common purpose is that they greatly admire the slaughter of 6 million jews and countless other folks, meet and scheme.

          Some of them get beat up by other people who deeply resent their efforts to support mass murder.

          I know which side i'm on.

    •  Before you condemn them, check out their message (0+ / 0-)

      and goals.  

      •  I would point you to a great quote from (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Nowhere Man

        our own meteor Blades.

        Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do, and I'll tell you what you believe.

        Here's my take on it - the revolution will not be blogged, it has to be slogged. - Deoliver47

        by OIL GUY on Sun May 20, 2012 at 11:07:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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