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View Diary: I Apologize, Profoundly. Update, a Thank You (235 comments)

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  •  I respect you, however... (20+ / 0-)

    As someone who has been critical of the president, and has seen comments flung her way that makes her less likely to participate in conversations re: Obama and his policies, I can only say that I'm grateful to kos for sending a strong message that, yes, we can disagree with the president, vehemently, and that disagreement should not be assumed to be racist in origin.

    So, for me, comments like yours are not helpful.

    I worked for the Lamont campaign, when he ran against Lieberman. Obama's (in)action there was the start of my dislike for him. And then there was his speech wherein he said that "Democrats should not be hostile to faith." I still grind my teeth when I think of that line. Then there was his relationship with Rahm Emanuel.

    This is all PRIOR TO HIM GETTING INTO THE WHITE HOUSE (well, except for Rahm).

    While I voted for him, I never was on the Obama bandwagon. Neither was I on the Hillary one. I, frankly, was embarrassed to have been for Edwards, but at least, prior to the revelations as to his sliminess and corruption, he was saying a LOT of things I liked hearing about poverty in this country. I sat the Democratic primaries out. After working for Dean, then for Kerry, then for Lamont, I was going to let others fight over the decision and get emotionally invested. I was just going to work for, and vote for whoever came out on top. And, yes, I worked for, gave money to, and voted for Obama.

    And, frankly, I resent feeling like I have to qualify my disagreement with Obama, and with fellow Kossacks, by revealing those things.

    So... Obama, to me, has always had a whiff of DLC/"centrist" about him. And as a former Deaniac, I am suspicious of anything smelling of DLC. To some extent, that odor still clings. Yes, he's being pushed further left because the Republicans are so intransigent. Yes, he has done good things. Etc.

    But... I am REALLY, REALLY, REALLY tired of being told I can't make noise about things that I don't like because that will "hurt Democrats." I am REALLY, REALLY, REALLY tired of the Democratic party making use of the time and money of people like me around elections, and then keeping us at arms length when it's time for "serious people" to make the "big decisions."

    I am also REALLY, REALLY tired of watching Dems, including Obama, "play nice" with the Republicans when history has shown us that, like Lucy, the Republicans are going to pull the football away just we try to kick it. Should I be grateful that now, 3 years later, that's finally started to change? I guess. But I can also resent all the opportunity and good will wasted along the way.

    That's not just an Obama fault -- it's a systemic flaw. But I can hold him responsible for playing the game as the Dems have been playing it for years, and then watching as they scratch their heads, wondering how they went from being 10 to 30 yards from a first down.

    •  both parties support the 1% (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      qofdisks

      by framing politics as a dialogue between the parties is missing the bigger issue

      namely, the issue raised by OWS, the environment, etc., etc.

    •  asdf (6+ / 0-)

      I respect you too renska. I was just saying that LiberalGranny's comment seemed pretty innocuous in light of some of the invective that gets flung around here on a daily basis. I've been on the recieving end of some really ugly crap here, from people who are still TU's and never even recieved a warning as far as I can tell. I'm not co-signing her comment, I just don't see how it was bannable.

      I avoid Obama debates here for a reason, so I'm not going to respond to the rest of your comment if you don't mind.

      Please support TREE Climbers, our 501(c)(3) for victims and survivors of sexual abuse and exploitation. Also, too, I haz a blog

      by SwedishJewfish on Tue May 22, 2012 at 06:58:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  looking for something that isn't there (5+ / 0-)

        when kos feels like things are getting out of hand, he bans a few people. he flies in, picks one from column A and one from column B.

        he doesn't really know our histories. he doesn't appear to spend a lot of time here (unlike, say, Meteor Blades, BBB, or some of the others). he wants the site to continue to attract a variety of people.

        he really doesn't like blanket accusations of racism for why progressives are critical of the president.

        if one wants to avoid banning one will not say things that cross a threshold with him.

        i don't fault kos for this practice. it's like refereeing a hockey game. there are more fouls than you can call. so you call a few here and there to not let the game get out of hand. if one side is too rough you call more fouls on them - maybe throw out one of their players.

        hockey fans always whine about "unfair" officiating - "why did he call this but not that??" but that's not the way it works.

        An ambulance can only go so fast - Neil Young

        by mightymouse on Tue May 22, 2012 at 07:47:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  But you don't know the context, so you're assuming (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JVolvo

        it was innocuous. That's part of the problem, too -- assuming that the people we identify as being on "our side" are essentially goodhearted and "cant possibly mean it."

        When it comes to racism -- or any "ism," really -- that's a dangerous assumption to make.

        Calling out our "friends" is just as important as calling out our "coworkers."

        And while I'm sorry for any nastiness aimed in your direction, it doesn't mean that others should get a free pass.

        •  Look (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          PinHole, Mindful Nature, gramofsam1

          Maybe I don't understand the context of the remark. It did not seem like a blanket condemnation to me. But I could very well be wrong.

          Bottom line-Liberal Granny is one of my favorite Kossacks because of all the work she does on womens issues, and I'm glad to see her back. I did not mean to start an argument over the fairness of her banning.

          Please support TREE Climbers, our 501(c)(3) for victims and survivors of sexual abuse and exploitation. Also, too, I haz a blog

          by SwedishJewfish on Tue May 22, 2012 at 10:52:55 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Accusations that progressives (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            BradyB, Mindful Nature

            are motivated by racism rather than genuine policy disagreements have been the single most divisive thing among democrats in the last three years and are very likely losing votes.  If you don't understand why kos banned LG and how such statements are dickish and conger-productive (kos's words) you and others need to do a lot of reflecting.

          •  I'm going to belabor a point, because I think (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SwedishJewfish, TiaRachel

            that this thread, while in part a dialogue between me and you, is also a stand-in for conversations as a whole on this site.

            So...

            I'm not condemning or accusing you. I'm responding because I believe that having a dialogue like this is important because there are many issues at play, and ones that well meaning folks need to have.

            1. In some part, you may feel like your comment is strictly meant to be taken by all readers as a conversation solely between you and the OP. But... it's not. Everything you say is visible to others. If you really want to have a conversation where your words will not be examined/cause a reaction, then the comment feature may not be the way to do it. A private message might be the way to go, particularly given the topic. Because people like me will read it and have a reaction.

            And once that reaction has been had, asking people to NOT see the comment as part of the larger conversation... well, the cat's out of the bag and it's not going back in.

            2. It's great that the OP does good work, in whatever area, and particularly in an area that's meaningful to you. But... But being a good feminist doesn't mean you get a free pass in other areas.

            3. I know you know this: "people not seeing the problem" or "not thinking it's a big deal" is very much PART of the problem.

            4.  I'm not arguing over the fairness, or not, of her banning. I'm arguing specifically with the assumption that waving away accusations of racism among progressive allies without knowing the details is understandable/okay.

            •  OK, I can understand that (0+ / 0-)

              I think these discussions are important, and you have been very respectful about it, so I will break my rule about not engaging in these debates here for just a moment.

              I think that there is an undercurrent of racism in some of the criticisms of President Obama. I am NOT saying that all critics are racists, or even most. I think there is racism on both sides, frankly (on the rox side, there is a bit of that "soft bigotry of low expectations" going on at times) See Shanikka's comment downthread-I'm 100% in agreement with her. It's part of our conditioning. And I do NOT think that it should be out of lines to talk about.

              I think that banning LG based on that one comment is unfortunate, because it has the effect of shutting down debate around an important issue that we should be able to talk about rationally. I can understand why people were offended by it-but I also don't see why that couldnt have spurred a discussion instead of a banning.

              And for the record, I would feel the same way if it was a critic who got banned.

              Please support TREE Climbers, our 501(c)(3) for victims and survivors of sexual abuse and exploitation. Also, too, I haz a blog

              by SwedishJewfish on Tue May 22, 2012 at 03:11:37 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Racism exists. I don't deny it. (0+ / 0-)

                I'm a white feminist and have seen firsthand how the "people not seeing it as a problem" (in intersections between feminism and racism) is a HUGE FUCKING PROBLEM.

                But the fact remains that blanket accusations are offensive, particularly when there are legitimate reasons to disagree with Obama and his policies.

                And if the first response to ANY criticism of Obama is a secret belief that the other party is a racist, well... no dialogue is possible.

                And, IMO, boiling down this disagreement to "rox/sux" minimizes serious issues.

    •  I will never be embarrassed for supporting (0+ / 0-)

      John Edwards.  I still think he should be the president today.  God knows we would be living in a much more MORAL society today if John were in power.

    •  Well said. (0+ / 0-)

      Some of us who get insulted for being insufficiently pro-Dem have given (and given up) more than they ever say in order to elect "more and better Democrats."

      We didn't expect everything to continue to move to the right regardless of whether we elected them or not. All that seems to shift is the speed.

      Being ignored is the difference between being a one percenter and an American.--sweeper

      by SouthernLiberalinMD on Tue May 22, 2012 at 03:58:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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