Skip to main content

View Diary: Some Recent Daily Kos Comics Go Against Site's Mission (280 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  Terrorists hate us for all kinds of things (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mets102

    but mostly because we have power, where they want power. The leaders of those organizations have no altruistic reasons for doing what they do. It's all about fulfilling what they see as their historical destiny and/or obligation as a "warrior of G-d". They would exist whether the U.S. was there or not. They would have different names but they would exist.

    Think on it this way... Terror and the uses of terror have been around for longer than the U.S. Terror is used in places that U.S. is NOT involved in.

    Now, if you want to discuss what things are in our interests as a nation... that is a reasonable discussion, though we may disagree.

    In any case, Helen Thomas is a bigot who I wouldn't take advice on how to make a Peanut Butter sandwich much less foreign policy.

    Ray McGovern is a CT guy whose obsession with Israeli control over American foreign policy borders on lunacy. AND he is also a "Truther".

    Occasionally David Duke says the "right" thing as well but, pretty much we should never use that jackass as a source. See what I am getting at.

    And no.. bigots are never right. Their bigotry colors their judgement and opinions and wrecks them as analytical tools.

    "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

    by volleyboy1 on Thu May 24, 2012 at 04:58:13 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  ROTFL! Take the word of Noam Chomsky then (5+ / 0-)

      We sustain dictators in the middle-east, who use our money and our weapons to crush and oppress their population.

      Now if you don't like Thomas or McGovern don't take their word. Take the word of the greatest living public intellectual Noam Chomsky


         
         
         
         
         

      Chomsky: What’s been going on in the Middle East, basically—and they don’t want to admit it—is the US and its allies have been supporting really harsh, brutal dictatorships for a very long time. And they’ve known for years, it’s not been a secret, that the population is strongly opposed to US policy. This guy Muasher, he’s a former Jordanian high official, which is a dictatorship of course, and he’s now the Middle East specialist for the Carnegie Endowment, and he was describing the principle that as long as people are quiet and subdued, we don’t really care what they think. Everything is fine.
      http://artvoice.com/...
      •  Why would I take Chomsky's voice on anything (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Mets102

        political?

        I don't agree with him.

        "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

        by volleyboy1 on Thu May 24, 2012 at 10:27:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't see how your disbelief changes reality. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          aliasalias, chipmo, shaharazade

          We either sustain dictators in the ME or we don't. These dictators either oppress and kill their population or they don't.

          The ME is listed as 2% free by Freedom House
          http://www.freedomhouse.org/...

          And one of the reasons it is not free is because of this:

          US-Backed Bahraini Forces Suppress Protesters in Anniversary Demonstrations
          http://www.commondreams.org/...

          See their own plight and stories for yourself

          •  Well Shawn I should have been clearer (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Mets102

            I don't trust Chomsky's analysis or rather solutions and recommendations. Yes, our policies do lead to oppressive governments. Guess what? The opposition is not different. Despite their rhetoric and talk and plans that they tell the West, there really is no difference.

            Does that make us right? No. Would groups that brutally ascend to power and then use brutality to maintain that power still exist and dominate? Yes.

            Chomsky is an intelligent man and a talented linguist but that's about it.

            "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

            by volleyboy1 on Fri May 25, 2012 at 07:36:40 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  If you really think it's just that we have power (6+ / 0-)

      then you need to take another look.  It's how we use that power, not that we have it.

      There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

      by AoT on Thu May 24, 2012 at 06:03:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No... really it's not (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Mets102

        It is our exercise of power.

        Yes, we abuse our power that is true.

        I don't see any circumstances though where our presence would be accepted unless it was handing out military aid and or money to the side that they supported. Under what circumstances do you see the U.S. being accepted into the region at the current time.

        Sorry does that sound cynical? Yep. Is it real? Yep.

        "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

        by volleyboy1 on Fri May 25, 2012 at 08:03:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  This is the most uninformed reasoning (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      shaharazade, Shawn Russell

      I have ever read outside of a neocon posting.

      Terrorists hate us for all kinds of things but mostly because we have power, where they want power. The leaders of those organizations have no altruistic reasons for doing what they do. It's all about fulfilling what they see as their historical destiny and/or obligation as a "warrior of G-d". They would exist whether the U.S. was there or not. They would have different names but they would exist.
      Read Chalmers Johnson and try to learn something.  Stop sounding like Bush.

      The bourgeoisie had better watch out for me, all throughout this so called nation. We don't want your filthy money, we don't need your innocent bloodshed, we just want to end your world. ~H.R.

      by chipmo on Fri May 25, 2012 at 06:03:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And this is one of the most unintelligent (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Mets102

        posts that I have seen yet.

        Are you actually going to tell me that if the U.S. and it's interests did not exist there would be no terror organizations, no brutal ruling groups? Seriously?? I mean, are the Janjaweed products of the U.S.? The Assad Dictatorship, a U.S. created power? The Mullahs in Iran?

        Perhaps you missed where I mentioned that the "leaders" of these groups, the founders if you will are not altruists. Are you actually doubting that?

        Bush and the neo-cons said that they hate us for our "freedoms and democracy". That is a very simplistic framing of why they hate us. I believe that they hate us because our interests in the region stand in the way of their interests. We are competing for the same political power, and the same resources.

        Now it is true in part that we have contributed to the mess that currently exists. We certainly have not been actors in good faith and that does create hatred as well. But no country or political group acts altruistically. It is all about power.

        Yes the West and it's political beliefs represent a threat to organizations that would abuse religion to seize power. But that is not the reason people in the MENA hate us (when they do) and I mentioned that in the line saying that people hate us for all kinds of things. BUT, it boils down to power in this case. It is a struggle for local and regional power. We exert it and they want it.

        Your glorious revolution doesn't exist. Sorry.

        "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

        by volleyboy1 on Fri May 25, 2012 at 07:48:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The Mullahs in Iran are a byproduct of U.S. (0+ / 0-)

          oppression through proxy. The U.S. backed a brutal dictator in Iran known as the Shah. The Ayatollah came to power by toppling the Shah with mass support.

          The Janjaweed were also fostered by the U.S. via proxy

          The 1988 Janjaweed began after the Chadian president Hissène Habré (b.1942), backed by France and the United States, defeated the Libyan army, thereby ending the territorial designs of Muammar al-Qaddafi (b.1942) on Chad.

          http://www.answers.com/...

          Your comments ignore all of this history.
          •  LOL You have got to be kidding me.... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Mets102

            Shawn, do you think none of us know history (and I was a teenager when the Shah fell)? The U.S. helped overthrow the Mosaddegh (sp?) regime in 1953 BUT had they not done that, there is no reason to think that a religious government under the Mullahs would not have arisen at some point. In fact, the clerical groups in Iran were agitating strongly against Western Influence and society in his regime as well and he suffered in support from the Provinces.

            The Iranian revolution had modern, nationalist components as well in the late 70's. Those people were tossed in favor of religious elements.

            Now onto the Janjaweed... To say, they are a by-product of American involvement is just plain goofy.

            The Janjaweed are armed partisans drawn from Arab tribes.

            In 1972, Muammar al-Gaddafi created the Islamic Legion as a tool to unify and Arabize the region. The priority of the Legion was first Chad, and then Sudan.

            In Darfur, a western province of Sudan, Gaddafi supported the creation of the Arab Gathering (Tajammu al-Arabi), which according to Gérard Prunier was "a militantly racist and pan-Arabist organization which stressed the 'Arab' character of the province."[6] The two organizations shared members and a source of support, and the distinction between the two is often ambiguous.

            The nearly continuous cross-border raids that resulted greatly contributed to a separate ethnic conflict within Darfur that killed about 9,000 people between 1985 and 1988.[7] The Janjaweed leadership has some background in Gaddafi's mercenaries.[8][9]

            The Janjaweed first appeared in 1988 after Chadian President Hissène Habré, backed by France and the United States, defeated the Libyan army, thereby ending Col. Muammar al-Gaddafi’s territorial designs on Chad. Libya’s Chadian protégé, Acheickh Ibn Omer Saeed, retreated with his partisan forces to Darfur, where they were hosted by Sheikh Musa Hilal, the newly elevated chief of the Mahamid Rizeigat Arab tribes of north Darfur. Hilal’s tribesmen had earlier smuggled Libyan weapons to Ibn Omer’s forces. A French-Chadian incursion destroyed Ibn Omer’s camp, but his weapons remained with his Mahamid hosts.

            Throughout the 1990s, the Janjaweed were Arab partisans, tolerated by the Sudan Government, who pursued local agendas of controlling land. The majority of Darfur’s Arabs, the Baggara confederation, began their presence in the war over grazing territory, and remain involved.[10] In 1999-2000, faced with threats of insurgencies in Western and Northern Darfur, Khartoum’s security armed the Janjaweed forces.

            They are a product of Libyan imperialistic policies not any silly "resistance" to the U.S. Your post and cite are misleading at best.

            Shawn, Just because someone wrote an article on it in a leftist blog or magazine, doesn't make it right. My comments take nothing but history into account. It would be good if you learned that history before telling others that they are ignoring it.

            "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

            by volleyboy1 on Fri May 25, 2012 at 12:07:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well Volley that comment was not meant as an (0+ / 0-)

              attack on you or your intelligence. I was not imply that you don't know history. I am just saying that you make certain leaps that ignore cause and effect.

              Let's look at Iran.

              Concerned about growing Soviet influence in Iran during the Cold War, the U.S. toppled the regime of Iran's elected prime minister Mohammed Mossadeq, who intended to nationalize the Iranian oil industry. The U.S.-backed coup against Mossadeq in 1953 reinforced the power of the young Mohammed Reza, Shah of Iran.

              The pro-Western Shah was viewed by many in Iran as increasingly autocratic and oppressive. He tried to institute many Western social reforms by decree, and his secret police, SAVAK, viciously silenced opposition voices. A 1979 Islamist revolution against the Shah's regime swept a new kind of Islamic state into power, the Islamic Republic of Iran, governed by Islamic jurists and scholars. The popular hatred of the Shah also tarred his American supporters, and the revolution's anti-American passion led to the storming of the U.S. Embassy in Tehran, where 53 hostages were held for more than a year
              http://www.pbs.org/...

              Now is PBS leftist propagandist entity? I will let the viewers decide.

              Anyway I said what I needed to say and I am out of this conversation.

              •  LOL no, PBS is not a leftist propaganda (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Mets102

                organization, but, your quote doesn't really go to your point Shawn.

                Shawn, there would have been religious tension in Iran even if Moseddegh had not been overthrown. Outside of Teheran people were unhappy with his regime and his introduction of Communism. They never would have been able to keep a lid on the fundamentalist aspects of the area without a severe crackdown of the religious elements.

                Did the U.S. create ill-will in Iran with it's support of the Shah? Absolutely but, I believe that no matter what, the U.S. would not have had the good will of the fundamentalists that took the government.

                Shawn, I am not ignoring history, in fact I am taking it very seriously.

                "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                by volleyboy1 on Fri May 25, 2012 at 02:44:26 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site