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  •  And this is one of the most unintelligent (1+ / 0-)
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    posts that I have seen yet.

    Are you actually going to tell me that if the U.S. and it's interests did not exist there would be no terror organizations, no brutal ruling groups? Seriously?? I mean, are the Janjaweed products of the U.S.? The Assad Dictatorship, a U.S. created power? The Mullahs in Iran?

    Perhaps you missed where I mentioned that the "leaders" of these groups, the founders if you will are not altruists. Are you actually doubting that?

    Bush and the neo-cons said that they hate us for our "freedoms and democracy". That is a very simplistic framing of why they hate us. I believe that they hate us because our interests in the region stand in the way of their interests. We are competing for the same political power, and the same resources.

    Now it is true in part that we have contributed to the mess that currently exists. We certainly have not been actors in good faith and that does create hatred as well. But no country or political group acts altruistically. It is all about power.

    Yes the West and it's political beliefs represent a threat to organizations that would abuse religion to seize power. But that is not the reason people in the MENA hate us (when they do) and I mentioned that in the line saying that people hate us for all kinds of things. BUT, it boils down to power in this case. It is a struggle for local and regional power. We exert it and they want it.

    Your glorious revolution doesn't exist. Sorry.

    "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

    by volleyboy1 on Fri May 25, 2012 at 07:48:17 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  The Mullahs in Iran are a byproduct of U.S. (0+ / 0-)

      oppression through proxy. The U.S. backed a brutal dictator in Iran known as the Shah. The Ayatollah came to power by toppling the Shah with mass support.

      The Janjaweed were also fostered by the U.S. via proxy

      The 1988 Janjaweed began after the Chadian president Hissène Habré (b.1942), backed by France and the United States, defeated the Libyan army, thereby ending the territorial designs of Muammar al-Qaddafi (b.1942) on Chad.

      Your comments ignore all of this history.
      •  LOL You have got to be kidding me.... (1+ / 0-)
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        Shawn, do you think none of us know history (and I was a teenager when the Shah fell)? The U.S. helped overthrow the Mosaddegh (sp?) regime in 1953 BUT had they not done that, there is no reason to think that a religious government under the Mullahs would not have arisen at some point. In fact, the clerical groups in Iran were agitating strongly against Western Influence and society in his regime as well and he suffered in support from the Provinces.

        The Iranian revolution had modern, nationalist components as well in the late 70's. Those people were tossed in favor of religious elements.

        Now onto the Janjaweed... To say, they are a by-product of American involvement is just plain goofy.

        The Janjaweed are armed partisans drawn from Arab tribes.

        In 1972, Muammar al-Gaddafi created the Islamic Legion as a tool to unify and Arabize the region. The priority of the Legion was first Chad, and then Sudan.

        In Darfur, a western province of Sudan, Gaddafi supported the creation of the Arab Gathering (Tajammu al-Arabi), which according to Gérard Prunier was "a militantly racist and pan-Arabist organization which stressed the 'Arab' character of the province."[6] The two organizations shared members and a source of support, and the distinction between the two is often ambiguous.

        The nearly continuous cross-border raids that resulted greatly contributed to a separate ethnic conflict within Darfur that killed about 9,000 people between 1985 and 1988.[7] The Janjaweed leadership has some background in Gaddafi's mercenaries.[8][9]

        The Janjaweed first appeared in 1988 after Chadian President Hissène Habré, backed by France and the United States, defeated the Libyan army, thereby ending Col. Muammar al-Gaddafi’s territorial designs on Chad. Libya’s Chadian protégé, Acheickh Ibn Omer Saeed, retreated with his partisan forces to Darfur, where they were hosted by Sheikh Musa Hilal, the newly elevated chief of the Mahamid Rizeigat Arab tribes of north Darfur. Hilal’s tribesmen had earlier smuggled Libyan weapons to Ibn Omer’s forces. A French-Chadian incursion destroyed Ibn Omer’s camp, but his weapons remained with his Mahamid hosts.

        Throughout the 1990s, the Janjaweed were Arab partisans, tolerated by the Sudan Government, who pursued local agendas of controlling land. The majority of Darfur’s Arabs, the Baggara confederation, began their presence in the war over grazing territory, and remain involved.[10] In 1999-2000, faced with threats of insurgencies in Western and Northern Darfur, Khartoum’s security armed the Janjaweed forces.

        They are a product of Libyan imperialistic policies not any silly "resistance" to the U.S. Your post and cite are misleading at best.

        Shawn, Just because someone wrote an article on it in a leftist blog or magazine, doesn't make it right. My comments take nothing but history into account. It would be good if you learned that history before telling others that they are ignoring it.

        "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

        by volleyboy1 on Fri May 25, 2012 at 12:07:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well Volley that comment was not meant as an (0+ / 0-)

          attack on you or your intelligence. I was not imply that you don't know history. I am just saying that you make certain leaps that ignore cause and effect.

          Let's look at Iran.

          Concerned about growing Soviet influence in Iran during the Cold War, the U.S. toppled the regime of Iran's elected prime minister Mohammed Mossadeq, who intended to nationalize the Iranian oil industry. The U.S.-backed coup against Mossadeq in 1953 reinforced the power of the young Mohammed Reza, Shah of Iran.

          The pro-Western Shah was viewed by many in Iran as increasingly autocratic and oppressive. He tried to institute many Western social reforms by decree, and his secret police, SAVAK, viciously silenced opposition voices. A 1979 Islamist revolution against the Shah's regime swept a new kind of Islamic state into power, the Islamic Republic of Iran, governed by Islamic jurists and scholars. The popular hatred of the Shah also tarred his American supporters, and the revolution's anti-American passion led to the storming of the U.S. Embassy in Tehran, where 53 hostages were held for more than a year

          Now is PBS leftist propagandist entity? I will let the viewers decide.

          Anyway I said what I needed to say and I am out of this conversation.

          •  LOL no, PBS is not a leftist propaganda (1+ / 0-)
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            organization, but, your quote doesn't really go to your point Shawn.

            Shawn, there would have been religious tension in Iran even if Moseddegh had not been overthrown. Outside of Teheran people were unhappy with his regime and his introduction of Communism. They never would have been able to keep a lid on the fundamentalist aspects of the area without a severe crackdown of the religious elements.

            Did the U.S. create ill-will in Iran with it's support of the Shah? Absolutely but, I believe that no matter what, the U.S. would not have had the good will of the fundamentalists that took the government.

            Shawn, I am not ignoring history, in fact I am taking it very seriously.

            "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

            by volleyboy1 on Fri May 25, 2012 at 02:44:26 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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