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View Diary: Walker did not win because of money. Period. (167 comments)

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  •  The biggest factor (8+ / 0-)

    We overplayed our hand.

    A sizeable number of Wisconsin voters, not necessarily in favor of Walker's policies, thought recall - which is a radical step - was uncalled for.

    If the margin had been closer, like a point or two, then perhaps money was the deciding factor.

    As a Californian, I told friends in 2003 after our recall that if one were called against Schwarzenegger or another Repub governor, I'd likely oppose it, because it was a bad thing to make normal. Now, if someone like Walker were governor here, then I'd likely feel differently. But I respect the instinct that recalls shouldn't be used to settle political differences.

    And that was the single biggest factor in Wisconsin.

    Though I disagree with the sentiment, I saw a pro-recall yard sign that said "Recall Santa - I didn't like what I got for Xmas." That sentiment rings true for a lot of voters. And we need to deal with that before we embark on another losing cause that hurts more than most losses.

    •  All fo the money that was spent netted Walker 47K (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rigcath, Quicklund, annecros, Sunspots

      votes give or take. He won by 3.5 times that amount.

      Many of us on the left are looking for a place to lay blame as to why we lost, because we cannot fathom how anybody could support Scott Walker. We need to realize that sometimes they just win.

      Did the money hurt Walker? Certainly not. But It can't be said that it was what won him the election.

      •  We ignore the power of that level of spending (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        to our detriment. It is not everything but it sure provides the tipping point.

        Money talks, bullshit walks. Old old saying.  

        "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

        by rubyr on Fri Jun 08, 2012 at 09:23:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  We over played our hand? Are you nuts? (8+ / 0-)

      You act like we were in the position of power with the ability to make decisions. Hardly.

      In Feb 2011 when this shit hit we threw everything we could think of at the Republicans in order to slow them down - anything that interrupted them on any level no matter how small was recieved as a major victory by us. That's how it feels to have your back against the wall.

      Now after we destroyed Walker's rubber-stamp state senate, you come here and say we "overplayed our hand"?

      To hell with that noise.

      Our hand was a pair of sevens showing and we were looking across the table at an open-ended straight flush. Yet we bluffed our way to stealing the ante. Like shit that's overplaying our hand.

      •  I stand by my point (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kestrel9000, emelyn, Neuroptimalian

        The great and admirable energy channeled by the great citizens in Wisconsin should have been used for other purposes - the 2012 general elections for the legislature, setting up the case for opposing Walker through conventional elections and so on.

        You are refusing even now to acknowledge the elephant in the room - a large number of Wisconsin residents, though not pleased with Walker, were convinced that recall was wrong.

        He now is far more strengthened than he would have been going into November and the future.

        Unions - particularly public unions - are now more threatened than they would have been had there been no recall. Republicans are emboldened. Their donors are particularly emboldened.

        I'm sorry my point isn't getting through, but this was a classic overreach.

        We need to battle. We need to fight for what was fought for here. But we need to be strategically smarter. This turned out to be a strategically bad move.

        •  You are wrong. (9+ / 0-)

          I am proof of it. Actual living proof that you are wrong.

          Although my state senator was not up for recall, I worked for the recall Darling effort. I was part of the (now defunct, but influential) Playground Legends. That experience, even though we "lost," got us prepared to take on Scott Walker and form the OLB. While we "lost" that too, it is simplistic and short-sighted to just make those judgements about what is a win and what is a loss based solely on vote counts.

          The recalls energized communities to get off their asses and do something for positive change. Sometimes that was GOTV efforts, and if you don't think that is important, then you are wrong again. The Racine Recall Teams beat Van Wanggaard. It was very close. Those people got together BECAUSE OF THE RECALL. I can't speak to what those people would have done or not done without a recall and neither can anyone else.

          I am pretty sick of this Monday morning quarterbacking about Wisconsin right now, and I really should stop reading these diaries.

          But if anyone thinks money is not at the root of it, they are DEAD WRONG. Propaganda is powerful and it is expensive. Particularly when it runs 24/7, 265 days a year and 1 extra day on leap year.

        •  It was. Wisconsin now has a very well (7+ / 0-)

          laid ground game in place. Please inform yourself before you speak. There are Obama offices and phone banking and canvassing organizations ready to go. They don't have to be set up. The voters are excited and active. Hundreds of thousands of people were contacted and are more politically aware. Thousands and thousands of voters registered for the first time and many were Dems. What is wrong with you? Are you arguing for the sake of argument? OR do you just want to make a lot of people who worked their asses off trying to save Wisconsin and this country, by extension, from the Tea Party/Koch brothers/ALEC radical agendas, feel bad about what they did.

          Please inform yourself. There is no evidence to prove that Walker is strengthened. ALEC was exposed due to the recall uprising. No one even had heard of ALEC before that and they have been up to their model legislation for 25 years and growing more bold every year. They have been called out. Members are leaving them and their brand is ruined. This alone was a huge, huge triumph for Wisconsin recallers. You really need to catch up.  

          "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

          by rubyr on Fri Jun 08, 2012 at 09:31:16 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thank you rubyr. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            rubyr, JamieG from Md, churchlady

            I fail to see why the left is so eager to blame themselves so profoundly and actually buy the right wing spin of these events.

            It is so emo. The right never gets emo. We need to stop this.

            I'm not saying that examining failures is bad: it is good! But it needs to be balanced by unemotional reality.

            •  I am totally unemotional (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              rigcath, emelyn, Neuroptimalian

              in my analysis.

              Are you unaware of the polls that show how toxic the idea of recall was to so many otherwiser reachable voters?

              I hope that good will come out of this. But a lot of bad has also. And unlike a normal election, this was, if it was an error, a self-inflicted one.

              I am on the same side as all of you. But please don't accuse me of swallowing Repub talking points or being a defeatist or emotional. None of that is true.

              •  Unemotional and without insight is no bargain (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                rubyr, rigcath

                Congrats on your Spock-like detachment to emotion. Jeers to your defeatist attitude

                •  Amen!!! n.t. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

                  by rubyr on Fri Jun 08, 2012 at 10:16:35 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  My initial point (0+ / 0-)

                  was and is that recall was unlikely because a core group of voters was opposed to that, though they didn't like Walker. And being aware of that fact (yes a fact) should inform this discussion and how the progressive movement procedes in the future.

                  I am happy to engage in a discussion of this point. But if the response is going to be a total dismissal of the merits of this viewpoint, then for me that is a symptom of a problem.

                  •  Then your initial point is nonsense (0+ / 0-)

                    because the polling data you're referring to comes from exit polling. About 60% disapproved of the recall, about 57% of eligible voters turned out, so at most you can say 34% of eligible voters actually expressed that sentiment. Most of those were probably Republicans as well.

                    Of the 43% who didn't turn out, you can pretend they agree with you if want to, but you have zero evidence that that's true. That in fact is the problem. Those 43% are about the same number who didn't turn out in 2010.

                    In terms of numbers, about 600,000 voters who voted for Obama in 2008 didn't vote for Barrett in either 2010 or 2012.  Walker got slightly fewer votes than McCain in 2010, slightly more in 2012 (Barrett also beat his 2010 total in 2012). Those numbers make it pretty hard to find the "recall hating" voters you pretend swayed the election, unless you mean Republicans, in which case, who cares?

                    What that points to is that Dems have a hard time getting their voters to turn out and vote, which is hardly news. Your explanation for one data point can't even be applied to any other election, and probably isn't even relevant for this one.

                    It's never too late to have a happy childhood - Tom Robbins

                    by badger on Fri Jun 08, 2012 at 12:22:15 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Seriously (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:

                      I am totally respectful toward you and in awe of your commitment.

                      Could I ask a little of the same?

                      I made zero reference to why those who didn't vote chose not to - I have no idea why you refer to that.

                      I do refer to polling I saw which showed that there was a large pool of actual voters who voted for Walker for the reason that they opposed any recall based on political disagreements. Are you disputing this?

                      Please make this less personal. I haven't done this. I excuse you for it, but at some point it detracts from the discussion.

              •   I am on the same side as all of you. (0+ / 0-)

                No!!  If that were true, you would listen.

                "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

                by rubyr on Fri Jun 08, 2012 at 10:18:39 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  We listen. (0+ / 0-)

                  But we know that those with opposing opinions do not possess a crystal ball of unchallengeable truth.  Opinions are just that without proven facts to back them up.

                  "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I am not sure about the universe." -- Albert Einstein

                  by Neuroptimalian on Fri Jun 08, 2012 at 01:53:48 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  voters were opposed to recall b/c Walker told them (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                AnnieJo, churchlady

                to be - over, and over, and over.  And unfortunately we didn't have the money or the foresight, I guess, to tell them otherwise.  

                Walker, your pink slip is coming, unless the orange jumpsuit gets you first.

                by non acquiescer on Fri Jun 08, 2012 at 01:28:18 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Well, Boehner... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              rigcath, badscience

              Exception to the Emo rule I'd say.

              Those who "Stand with Walker" fall for anything.

              by GenXBadger on Fri Jun 08, 2012 at 10:11:42 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  A large number of WI votes think Walker is great (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          NoMoreLies, AnnieJo, GeoffT

          Stand by your point all you want. I'll stand right here in WI and tell you your point is wrong. I'm glad your view did not sieze the day last year.

          Unions are more threatened now than if there had been no recall? There would be right-to-work legislation on Walker's desk right now if there had been no recall.

          You are grossly misinformed, insane or a little from column A and a little from column B.

          you point isn't "getting through" because your point is foolish.

      •  To hell with that noise. Amen!!! Sick of it. n/t (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        badscience, Quicklund

        "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

        by rubyr on Fri Jun 08, 2012 at 09:24:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  The reason it rang true was months of uncontested (4+ / 0-)

      advertising carrying that message.

    •  I think Ed Schultz and John Nichols disposed (5+ / 0-)

      of your argument on Wednesday night.  It took me a while to find this video, but it is a lot more informed than your opinion from the vantage point of California.  People heard that the recall was bad for months and months, without a counterargument being presented.  Advertising works. eom

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