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View Diary: Jobless rate hits 8.2%. 'Missing workers' make the situation look better than it is (349 comments)

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  •  Who is "we"? (17+ / 0-)


    the millions of unemployed/underemployed?

    "I don't feel the change yet". Velma Hart

    by Superpole on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 06:14:08 AM PDT

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    •  yeah... (0+ / 0-)

      although i'm more inclined to uprate both of you because democratic victories would HELP the unemployedd. If the dnc dscc or dccc send you mailers, send that link back to them and tell them you won't send money to people who defend democrats who betray progressive principals! up yours!

      by daeros on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 06:20:32 AM PDT

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    •  I think I know what he means by this (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Pozzo, Supavash

      The fact is that Romney's method would lead to a crash by 2014 and we need to hit that hard.

      Also, didn't something similar happen last year when May numbers were 54K?

      With gas prices tumbling again (just like they did last year) spending might just tick up. Because of that, the rate may trend back down.

      Also, it looks like the Greece issue will be solved by June 17. The pro-bailout forces have a pretty big lead.

      The poster is trying to stay positive. I don't know what side of the fence you are on, but it's always good to try to do that.

    •  we is the country (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      and yes those millions of unemployed/underemployed will do much better with Obama re-elected then with Romney in there.

      Guess what its fucking going to take time. There is no quick fix to almost a decade of horrible economic policies. So everyone needs to settle in because there will be more bumps in the road for YEARS to follow.

      •  Convince them and the media. Right now (1+ / 0-)
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        Medium Head Boy

        Romney has the full stage to play with these numbers.

        There's nothing new the Pres can do or say to pump up the voting public.

        He had his chance to attack the "do nothing" congress, but chose not to.

        I'm disheartened now. Unless things pick up substantially, this becomes Romney's playground.

        Progressives will win only when we convince a majority that they, too, are Progressive. And... It’s the Supreme Court, stupid!

        by auapplemac on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 06:38:11 AM PDT

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      •  Obama is not doing (4+ / 0-)

        enough to end this Depression. He wasted time and did damage switching to "belt-tightening" rather than focusing on jobs. He has shrunk the Federal workforce, etc.

        He's better than Romney and the gop, for sure. But he's been bad enough that there's needless suffering for many millions because of his bad decisions.

      •  It's more than a decade. It includes some... (14+ / 0-)

        ...awful decisions by Bill Clinton, too, although the economic impact of of those decisions didn't hit on his watch. Picking some of the worst of Clinton's advisors to be his, as some of us warned starting in November 2008, was among Obama's chief mistakes.

        We've got both chronic economic problems and acute problems; they are entangled with each other. And nobody I know says that "fixing" either is easy.

        What irks me is that we've been hearing for three years now from the president's surrogates, both in Washington and in places like Daily Kos, that those of us presenting warnings about the economy, whether we have Nobel prizes or are mere amateur observers, don't know our asses from a hole in the wall and should let the "adults in the room" take care of everything.

        That kind of perspective is part of what has put us in the situation we're in today, going into a crucial election in which door-to-door campaigning is going to be very tough indeed.

        Obviously, nobody who cares about our future should be talking surrender. Quite the opposite. But there is no sugar-coating this jobs report because it's isn't just one month, it's three. And it's worse than in 2011 when we had the tsunami and the Arab Spring as an excuse.

        Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

        by Meteor Blades on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 07:20:40 AM PDT

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        •  well guess what (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          next month could be worse, and if Europe goes down, all the stimulus in the world wouldn't/won't help us.

          It's a roller coaster. If you want to say I told you so, feel free, but at this point, not sure what you expect that to accomplish.

          I would have liked to see a bigger stimulus too, but a) dont think it would have passed, and b) not sure what we could have gotten passed would have been enough to significantly change things.

          So, we are where we are, and we aren't going anywhere else before the elections because as it stands not a darn thing is going to get through the House that remotely stands a chance of success.

          We can get to work, or we can gripe, complain about how we weren't listened to and thus it's all falling apart.
          I see no utility in the latter.

          •  Pardon me, but I've been involved in ... (9+ / 0-)

            ...politics, both electoral and "street," for 49 years, several of them before I could even vote. I haven't given up. And I don't plan to start now. But I also don't ignore the economic and political facts that we, as progressives, have to deal with in order to keep the situation from getting worse.

            It's not just that some of us weren't listened to (were, in fact, ridiculed, excoriated, even accused of carrying GOP water). It's the fact that we're STILL not being listened to. Just as we weren't listened to about this time in 2010 when we said Democrats were in big trouble in the coming election that year.  Right up until September, we were told that our assessment was completely wrong and our warnings were hurting Democratic chances. Afterward, you still hear echoes of that today, some people actually blamed us for the outcome in 2010, saying we had suppressed voter enthusiasm.

            This is not about vindication. It's about trying to return our discourse to what we once touted ourselves at being: part of a "reality-based community." The reality is that big mistakes were made, that many people warned in advance that the mistakes were being made and were nearly tarred and feathered for the warnings, and that even now we're being accused of being nothing more than whiners.

            November is going to be tough. We're going to have to fight hard to hang onto both the White House and the Senate. Sugarcoating or otherwise glossing over the economic news will not make it easier.

            Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

            by Meteor Blades on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 08:27:42 AM PDT

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            •  Sorry (0+ / 0-)

              but your posts in this thread don't come across as just telling the plain facts with no sugar-coating, they come across as, see I told you so.

              no one has said this is good news, but it isn't unexpected news either. You can continue to talk about how something two years ago should have been different, but I fail to see how that does anything positive.

              Now, if you have a specific idea for what needs to happen in the future, that's fine, although the reality at this point is nothing, absolutely nothing you propose that requires Congress to do anything is going to happen between now and November.

              So, you tell me, how is "keeping it real" and talking about how you should have been listened to two years ago going to help things now?

              You are thinking strategically/long term, but we are well passed that point now. it's tactical now, short-term, win the election.

              After the election, we can return to thinking long-term, and strategically.

              By the way, I didn't even use the words "given up" in that post, I said griping and complaining about not being listened to does nothing at this point.

              Because it doesn't. Regardless of whether or not you were 1000 percent right about needing a bigger stimulus, for myriad reasons it didn't happen. It sure as heck is not going to happen now.

              So what's the point at this stage months away from the election, revisiting the issue now because we've had a couple of months of weak growth?

              •  "... but it isn't unexpected news either..." (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Detlef, dclawyer06

                Puhleez. This is what I am talking about.

                I urge you to look at what has been said in just the jobs report diaries for the past six months. There are plenty of comments saying that what you call not "unexpected news" wouldn't happen, that the economy had turned around and all us "doomers and gloomers" had been proved wrong.

                We'd been treated to folks saying just a couple of months ago that unemployment might be as low as 7.5% in November and that would assure Obama's reelection. This kind of pollyanna forecasting, despite the caveats in the data.

                And THIS:

                "... the reality at this point is nothing, absolutely nothing you propose that requires Congress to do anything is going to happen between now and November."
                That's precisely what some folks have been saying about the proposals that others and I have made for the past three years: Nothing can be done. Congress is in the way, so. we. shouldn't. even. propose. anything.

                Personally, THIS is the doomer and gloomer approach, not the can-do attitude that we, as progressives, ought to be putting forth. Instead of lowering expectations, we should push hard, as progressives in other eras have done, for far more than we think we can obtain in the short run.

                You are quite right that at the moment we have to think about how to get Democrats elected and work hard to make that happen despite the economic mess, despite the fact that the don't-present-any-strong-jobs-proposal "faction" won the rhetorical argument that has helped make that campaign so tough for us.

                One thing that won't help is more talk about these numbers not being really that bad.

                And a final note:

                I can just about guarantee what will happen come November if Obama does win a second term and we manage to hang onto the Senate: strategic economic thinking that you say we can "return" to will again be laughed off as the proposals of people who don't know how politics works.

                Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

                by Meteor Blades on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 10:04:52 AM PDT

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                •  so the fact that someone (0+ / 0-)

                  has been too optimistic is the reason why you need to engage in see I told you so?

                  There are always going to be uber-optimists out there. I wasn't one of them, so telling me about them is a waste of our mutual time. I thought MAYBE the rate MIGHT hit 7.9, and still think there's an outside shot of that.

                  Second, it's frustrating to me to see that you are lumping in the fact that we are in the homestretch with only 5 months until the election and thus nothing is going to happen (and you KNOW as well as I that nothing would pass this House that would have an iota of a chance to help this economy, because that would help Obama and the Dems)...

                  with someone(s) who made an argument that nothing will pass three years ago?

                  Apples and oranges. The former is reality. It recognizes how long it takes for even legislation folks more or less agree on to pass Congress. It recognizes that the current House is batshit crazy. It recognizes that as long as we have the abused filibuster, owning the Senate isn't going to move things more quickly. And it again recognizes that we have five months to go (and less than that before we'd have to see some results from whatever could be passed).

                  The latter is something it's fine for you to be upset about, because it effectively says never ever try.

                  And no I don't believe the numbers are REALLY bad. I believe they aren't good. I believe they are disappointing, and I believe we need to do better. But no, I don't think they are REALLY bad. I think that's hyperbole.

                  But let me tell you what happens if we "push for more than we can expect in the short run." We'll all be disappointed all over again because it won't possibly happen. Which isn't going to be very effective in generating the enthusiasm we need to counter the other side.

                  •  For the record, President Obama has just ... (0+ / 0-)

                    ...finished a speech in Minnesota right now making proposals that won't happen by election day.

                    These numbers aren't really bad. If the "missing workers" are included the actually unemployment rate, as I wrote in this diary, would be 9.7% to 11.4%. By any metric, that's bad. Really bad.

                    About the only thing we seem to agree about is the need to fight to keep things from getting worse by allowing a transfer of power to the Republicans.

                    Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

                    by Meteor Blades on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 10:55:32 AM PDT

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            •  What is the Definition of Insanity (0+ / 0-)


              Look, MB, it's time to take the next logical step: stop wasting time and effort with the current hopelessly corrupt, polarized paradigm.

              The big D democratic party died some time ago (thanks! Clinton, Emanuel, McAuliffe, etc.) and yes, Nader is correct regarding what we have now.

              The democrats have proven this over and over again, one prime bit of proof being when they tossed Howard Dean out in favor of a politics as usual loser Kerry.

              It's wayyyyyyyyy past time for an actual Labor/Green party.

              "I don't feel the change yet". Velma Hart

              by Superpole on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 11:27:41 AM PDT

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              •  Maybe so. But the American landcape is... (0+ / 0-)

                ...littered with a century-and-a-half's worth of bones and phantoms of third parties, including labor parties and green parties. The Greens have been on the ballot in California for two decades. Remind me again how many Green office-holders the state has. That failure doesn't stop it from running symbolic campaigns for President and Senate, wasting energy and what little money it has for no good reason.

                When such a party commits itself to actually running candidates for scores of city council and state legislative seats, get back to me. Until one does, third parties are bad jokes, no matter how good their platforms.

                Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

                by Meteor Blades on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 01:16:13 PM PDT

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        •  Regarding the "Adults" in the Room (0+ / 0-)

          Presumably one of the adults, Obama, is doing no less than SIX campaign events today.. in one freakin' day.

          Uhh, I get it- the guy needs to campaign, but I just don't see the sense of urgency/priority here.

          This is yet another example of the democrat acting just like the repug would. Obama should be staying in DC, admitting we have a serious crisis on our hands, kicking the shit out of congress to get something(s) done.

          Instead, because it's yet another election year, Obama and the "democrats" in congress are (again) kicking the can down the road to the lame duck session where the debt ceiling issue comes up (again) providing a bullshit excuse to continue to do nothing about real economic growth.

          This is "leadership"??

          "I don't feel the change yet". Velma Hart

          by Superpole on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 10:18:26 AM PDT

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      •  Really? (0+ / 0-)
        and yes those millions of unemployed/underemployed will do much better with Obama re-elected then with Romney in there.
        How do you figure? does an Obama win mean the repugs in congress are suddenly going to wake up and pass some meaningful legistlation with the dems? Especially if the repugs get control of the senate?

        gimme a break

        Here's a more likely scenario: if Rmoney wins, he and the doofus repugs in congress finally wake up, "hey everyone, we're in a serious crisis!! we need a new stimulus plan to create jobs! let's rebuild our nation! yayyyyy!"

        of course the dems will have to support this, because that is in fact what needs to happen.

        "I don't feel the change yet". Velma Hart

        by Superpole on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 11:18:57 AM PDT

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    •  Some people seem far more concerned (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Superpole, happymisanthropy

      with winning this election than what happens to the country. What is so great about electing a Democrat is he is going to govern like a Republican?

      My hatred and fear of the Republican Party and Mitt Rmoney is far greater than my disappointment in the way Obama has governed, so I will be voting for Obama. But I still feel like I am being forced to choose between the frying pan and the fire.

      I don't believe for a second that these people are stupid. They are trying to win elections rather than doing what is right for the country. But it sure seems to me that doing what is good for the country would also be good for winning elections. Instead we have to put lipstick on a pig and hope no one notices.

      Why can't we have someone that actually represents US for a change?

      "I will believe corporations are people the day Texas executes one!"

      by Haningchadus14 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 08:01:29 AM PDT

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      •  I think part of the problem is the American (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Electorate likes to punish those that do what's right and award those that don't do what's right.  Just look at Jimmy Carter's re-election.  He made the right call with putting Volcker as Treasurer who's tactics took time to implement but helped the economy hence why Reagan didn't get rid of him when Reagan was elected.  There was also the way Carter handled the Iranian hostage situation.  He actually spent more time focusing on handling the hostage crisis peacefully and less time campaigning.  And of course there's that speech where Carter told the truth about how we are becoming a nation of consumers.  Carter should've won re-election and should've been rewarded for his handling of the hostage situation and putting Volker in charge of the Fed and spent time focusing on his job and less on the actual campaign.  Yes, it doesn't help that both corporate and even private and independent media outlets can distort information but we the American people also need to analyze ourselves and what direction we want the country to go.  We have to drop this NIMBY attitude and realize that we have to sacrifice and share in order to make this country work.  It's give and take.  Once American society realizes this, then we will get a government that works for us.

      •  BEENGO!! (0+ / 0-)
        with winning this election than what happens to the country. What is so great about electing a Democrat is he is going to govern like a Republican?
        Well, here in insanely partisan Bloggo world, what's-his-name's old adage: "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing" is totally worshipped.

        What exactly we are "winning" with mere political victories is never explained. Now with literally Millions of us losing with the current economic/political paradigm, the answer is.... our corrupt/incompetent leadership needs more time!! but again, time to do what is not explained.

        as one of my fav college profs was fond of saying, "it's later than you think".

        "I don't feel the change yet". Velma Hart

        by Superpole on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 11:37:45 AM PDT

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