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  •  GM is majority-owned by (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dkmich

    the United States government. The Treasury Dept. gets to vote its shares. So, ironically, President Obama is a member of ALEC.

    •  No. No. And No. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MKSinSA

      This is so sloppy in its math, that it is worthy of the right wing.

      Do you think we miss your slight of hand?  

        •  ???? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          MKSinSA

          So, let me get this straight.  You think that many of us here will not see your effort to tie Obama to ALEC with incredibly bad math?  I think that's what you're saying, set me right if I'm wrong.

          Why, oh why, do I find in this thread people like you, so eager to bring the president down, with absofreakinlutely NO BELIEVABLE EVIDENCE to support their accusations?

          I can't believe, doc2, that you stand so stubbornly on the idea that Obama is really our number one problem, and that quite possibly, he supports the agenda of ALEC.

          I know this doesn't qualify as a CT on your part, but to me, it reads as such.

          •  I'll speak slowly as you seem like (0+ / 0-)

            a very confused person. The United States is (by far) the largest shareholder in GM. That is a fact. President Obama is the executive. He calls the shots (through his Cabinet) in terms of how we vote those shares. So whatever GM does, anything and everything, is something that is done by a company whose largest block of voting shares is controlled by President Obama. Those are just facts. No one said he was a problem. No one said anything, really. You seem to be a hothead. Cool it.

            •  Oh for cripes sake, (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              MKSinSA

              spare me the "confused person", "hothead" crap. This is what people resort to when they can't make a better point. Let it be noted that I didn't tell you to "cool it" didn't call you a hot head, because you expressed your opinion.  I accepted your opinion as it was and answered to it.  

              I find your idea that President Obama is the "executive" of GM, able to call the shots for that company, to be pure and unadulterated BUNK, on many levels.  

              No.  These are NOT "the facts" for me.  And I don't want to argue with you about it anymore.  Let's just agree to disagree.

      •  Chill out... (0+ / 0-)

        I will guarantee you manfrommiddletown is NOT the enemy, and you really need to quit accusing people of being trolls without any evidence.   There is no need to go nuclear on fellow posters.  

        "bin Laden's dead, and GM is alive" ~ Biden

        by dkmich on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:58:57 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  There is absolutely no evidence to (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dkmich

      this effect, but ostensibly Obama could have been a member when he was an Illinois state legislator.  His current ambassador to China, and former Democratic Gov. of Washington state, was.  I'd like to see someone ask Obama about ALEC and Gary Locke, just so that the spread of ALEC Alumni (the organization if focused on state government) could be brought to light.

      http://www.economicpopulist.org

      by ManfromMiddletown on Thu May 31, 2012 at 05:05:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Really? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        MKSinSA

        You honestly think Obama was a member of ALEC when he was an Illinois state legislator?  

        Here you are, selling guilt by association.  And here you are, asking Obama to prove he wasn't a member of ALEC.

        Thanks, Orly.  Just what we need.  More of this kind of thinking.

        •  Yes (0+ / 0-)

          Really. I wasn't suggesting that Obama was a member, merely that he could have been.  (There are, or were, several Democratic members of ALEC in the Illinois.)

          There is documentary evidence that Obama has appointed people linked to ALEC to positions within his administration.  This doesn't suggest that his administration did this purposefully, rather it raises questions about whether this is something that is being vetted.

          http://www.economicpopulist.org

          by ManfromMiddletown on Thu May 31, 2012 at 05:27:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Hmmmm. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            MKSinSA

            First of all, I'd like to know on what you base your opinion that there "are, or were, SEVERAL Democratic members of ALEC in Illinois."  Not disbelieving you, just wanting to know how you back this up.  Always trying to learn.

            But, more to the point, if Obama was a member of ALEC at ANY time, common sense tells me that fact would be out there by now.  Lord knows, Obama has been put on the rotisserie like no other president in my lifetime.  How would his membership in ALEC have escaped detection till now?

            Sorry, but your comment here, "that he could have been" is not useful without more evidence that he was.  He also "could be" a spy, a socialist, a man born in Kenya, a person who is not as he appears to be. This is the kind of nonsense the right wing lives on.

            All I'm asking from you is that you not float possibilities as likely as that the sun will rise in the west tomorrow, with absolutely NO evidence that it will be so.

            Why do you feel the need to do this?

            •  Educate yourself (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              dkmich

              ALEC Exposed has been putting a lot of great information out there about exactly what the group has been up to.

              On that website, there is a great list of legislators, including those from Illinois. Among present Democratic legislators, Reps. Mary Flowers and Brandon Phelps, have been confirmed as ALEC members, and left the group this spring.

              I know how this list was put together, I know its deficiencies, and I know that there are a number of legislators with ALEC ties that haven't been disclosed.

              You said:

              But, more to the point, if Obama was a member of ALEC at ANY time, common sense tells me that fact would be out there by now.  Lord knows, Obama has been put on the rotisserie like no other president in my lifetime.  How would his membership in ALEC have escaped detection till now?
              How would we know that Obama had been an ALEC member?  The last time that ALEC willingly made the membership of its committees public was in their 1995 Sourcebook which is available only in print, and from a highly limited number of libraries nationwide. This hasn't been entered in full into  CMD's wiki.  I got access to the sourcebooks, and I've been checking the names against current representatives. It is intensely time consuming.  Something like 4-5 hours to check a single committee. Based on the 670 names I checked so far, 114 were Democrats.

              Remember that Obama was a state senator from 1997-2004.  That period isn't covered in the 1995 source book.  Between 1995-2010 we have no official records from ALEC.  After that the next set of membership records that we have are the ones ones released by Common Cause from 2010-2012. Again, after Obama had left state office.  

              There's a huge gap here between 1995-2010, and I think that it's entirely fair to ask any person who was a state legislator during that period if they had any relationship with ALEC. If we are going to ask the question of all the others who held office in this period, I think it's only fair that Obama is included in that group.

              http://www.economicpopulist.org

              by ManfromMiddletown on Thu May 31, 2012 at 06:48:45 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  OK, so I went to your links. (0+ / 0-)

                What I found is that ALEC Exposed, is not at all interested in your fear that somehow, Obama was once a member of ALEC, and has managed to pull the wool over our eyes all this time.  In fact, that's not what ALEC Exposed seems to be about at all.

                If ANYONE here wants to click on your links, what they'll find is an endless list of republican ALEC participants with a Democratic drip here and there. Please tell me how I'm wrong.

                Like I'd say, according to what you linked me too, that 99.5% of all ALEC participants are republican.  Ok, I'll even give you 99%.  After that, you're going to have to do the math and prove to me it's more.  

                I don't have the time or motivation to check out your attempted eyebrow raising investigation about ALEC participation in the years you say there is no record.  I'll take you on your word there is no record on that.  But I saw all I needed to know with what IS on record. And none of that surprised me, or motivated me to find out who the Democrats were, including OBAMA, who might have once signed on.  It's like fishing needles out of a haystack.

                If this is your cause, man, have at it.  And let us all know what you find out.  We await, breathlessly, the result of your investigations.  In the mean time, the rest of us will attend to things we think more important.

                •  Ok (0+ / 0-)

                  You've made your position clear.

                  You feel that it's inappropriate to ask members of the Democratic party in state legislators what, if any, their involvement with ALEC is.

                  Because it's alright it Democrats are members of ALEC, and help bring back Jim Crow, because hey, they're Democrats, and that's what matters.

                  http://www.economicpopulist.org

                  by ManfromMiddletown on Thu May 31, 2012 at 08:47:57 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  No. (0+ / 0-)

                    I will not allow you to rephrase my point like this.  And to bring up Jim Crow to boot!  This is a particularly desperate argument, and you should be ashamed of yourself for making it.  You and Alan West would have a lot to talk about.

                    Your hyperbole is to me, sickening.  How dare you accuse Democrats of being all about the return of Jim Crow laws, as long as they initiate it. This is really beyond the pale and under the belt.  Not to mention a bucket of bull shit.  

                    Like I said, if this is your cause, have at it.  But don't come whining back, shooting off false arrows, when someone questions you on your priorities.

                    •  Will you stop. (0+ / 0-)

                      So far, you've been the one whining and slinging hyperbole and bull shit.  As user id #184501, you don't have a clue who user ID #15002  is.  You are making a fool of yourself.  You took two innocent comments from two different posters and turned them into WWIII.   Get a life.

                      "bin Laden's dead, and GM is alive" ~ Biden

                      by dkmich on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:04:19 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  People who butt into (0+ / 0-)

                        others' conversations to lecture rudely are not high on my credibility list.

                        Middleman was telling me it was necessary to investigate whether Obama was part of ALEC and how Democrats might be bringing back Jim Crow due to their involvement in ALEC.
                        I took the time to read his links, and put forth my opinion.  That's what we do here.  Seen you do it plenty.

                        So take your insults and stuff 'em where the moon don't shine.

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