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View Diary: Bush-Obama Economics Is Failing (174 comments)

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  •  Excuse me (5+ / 0-)

    But if we are to counter his arguments, he needs to have some credible arguments to start off with.

    You counter crap with crap. As is warranted.

    "We have only the moral ground we actually inhabit, not the moral ground we claim." - It Really Is That Important

    by Diogenes2008 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 11:36:49 AM PDT

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    •  You mean like facts (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Nada Lemming, Diebold Hacker

      about how Obama thinks that tax cuts are going to stimulate economic growth?  Or about how the Bush tax cuts were preserved in a Congress that was run, both houses, by Democrats, and Obama was nowhere to be found on that issue?

      Go ahead, I've given you the opening to talk about how the President of the United States is completely powerless and without influence over what his own party does in Congress.

      Being ignored is the difference between being a one percenter and an American.--sweeper

      by SouthernLiberalinMD on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 11:52:11 AM PDT

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      •  tax cuts can stimulate (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Diogenes2008

        the issue is that effect is less than direct federal spending.

        also the effect has shrunk as Americans savings have disappeared.  

        so your statement isn't grounded in fact.  it's hyperbole.

        You mean like facts about how Obama thinks that tax cuts are going to stimulate economic growth?
        facts is tax cuts are barely stimulative but they are better than nothing.  

        if you're working with an opposition that only wants tax cuts then the stimulus you get is bound to be loaded with them.  that's how it works in congress in our two party system.  legislation is usually a shit sandwich which both parties use to beat up each other rather than solve our problems.

        -You want to change the system, run for office.

        by Deep Texan on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 12:28:59 PM PDT

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        •  OK, but was "nothing" the alternative? (0+ / 0-)

          It is when you don't offer one.

          •  in reality yes (0+ / 0-)

            in some ideological paradise you seem to think we live in, then i guess anything is possible.

            but the votes were not there.  that's how it is.  whine all you want but the votes for our progressive legislation wasn't enough to get it passed.  we had to work with republicans, they are holding everything hostage.

            deal with reality.  otherwise, get out of the way.  you're not helping.

            -You want to change the system, run for office.

            by Deep Texan on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 12:53:34 PM PDT

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            •  Then you fight for the right thing instead of (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              DSWright, Pluto, Diebold Hacker

              rolling over and conceding defeat. you go to the public. You use the bully pulpit. You ask people to phone and write their congressman. And when you do not have the votes of every Democratic congressman you do to them what Lyndon Johnson did to them. You threaten and bully. You demand and then you hint that he could face a primary opponent.

              You do not treat a traitor like Joe Lieberman like a trusted friend. You pull his committee assignments. You threaten Republicans with the nuclear option. You play politics, you do not sing Kumbaya with your adversaries.

              The reason the Republicans are so obstructionist is that they have discovered that being ideological works. For them. Their goal is to eliminate government and keep new programs from passing. THey do not have to have any new ideas just so long as they keep us from doing anything. Name the problem and they have a single solution for it keep the government out. Unless it is an issue about one's personal life. That solutionis "Consult the Old Testament" To fight against that we have to present something more compelling than "We will reach out across party lines to find a centrist solution. That may make David Broder and Tom Friedman happy but will not inspire voters.  

              •  Yes! (0+ / 0-)

                Obama took office riding a huge wave of popular support for Change! He should have used his political capital, hard, from day 1.

                And I wish I could rec this part again and again:

                You do not treat a traitor like Joe Lieberman like a trusted friend. You pull his committee assignments. You threaten Republicans with the nuclear option. You play politics, you do not sing Kumbaya with your adversaries.

                How many divisions does OWS have?

                by Diebold Hacker on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:16:10 PM PDT

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            •  Ideological paradise? No. (0+ / 0-)

              Battlefield, yes.
              I suggest bringing firepower rather than pleas for good treatment.

              And yes, I mean that metaphorically.  I'm not one of those "2nd amendment solution" crazy types.

              Being ignored is the difference between being a one percenter and an American.--sweeper

              by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sat Jun 02, 2012 at 07:37:27 PM PDT

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        •  That is not how to move your position forward (0+ / 0-)

          in Congress, nor how to achieve change.

          The Republicans have been using the exact opposite strategy for twenty years:  suggest the most extreme thing they can think of and then grudgingly give ground--and they have successfully moved the discourse so far to the right that we are in danger of losing Medicare and Social Security, programs that enjoy over 70% popularity in polls.

          Democrats, on the other hand, come to the table begging the opposition to be reasonable, with compromises pre-made in their hands as an offering:  "please don't hurt us, please be nice and work with us, see how many concessions we've made already?  See how conservative we are?"  This does not work for anything other than putting yet more power into the hands of the Republican party.

          Secondarily, yes, tax cuts are barely stimulative.  Sorry if my statement implied they provide no stimulus. The fact is they will provide an incredibly weak tea stimulus in the face of a Lesser Depression of terrifying extent.  In other words, they are like putting a band-aid on a gunshot wound.

          Being ignored is the difference between being a one percenter and an American.--sweeper

          by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sat Jun 02, 2012 at 07:36:04 PM PDT

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      •  To be fair (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        rscopes, Deep Texan

        he traded the tax cut extension for unemployment benefits.

        Courtesy Kos. Trying to call on the better angels of our nature.

        by Mindful Nature on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 01:05:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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