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  •  Yep. (4+ / 0-)

    Going all pro-business makes the Democrats more appealing to those folks but sacrifices blue-collar votes.

    28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

    by TDDVandy on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:25:09 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Not only DLC types, though (12+ / 0-)

      In the 'burbs, issues like police and teacher pay are frequently hot button topics. Schools are constantly releasing budgets and requesting votes for higher property taxes. And the nicer the suburb, the higher that cop/teacher pay tends to be. I personally know plenty of otherwise across-the-board liberals who get really bent out of shape at a cop or teacher making $80, 90K, regardless of the seniority/qualifications involved, which are rarely if ever considered or even understood.

      (-2.38, -3.28) Independent thinker

      by TrueBlueDem on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:36:37 AM PDT

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      •  Very true, especially in NJ where I grew up (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TrueBlueDem, Aquarius40

        School districts are always looking to increase their budgets, property taxes are going up, but job security and incomes are going down. There's a huge flip of support for school budgets when one's own children have long since graduated, at least that's what I've experienced.

        •  My mother being a prime example (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mattc129, TDDVandy, Cordyc, Aquarius40

          She's a die-hard liberal - volunteers for the local penny-ante progressive publication, Code Pink anti-war marcher, all that. She has voted against every local school budget since my younger brother graduated from high school. Of course, when we were in that school system, she complained about "stingy senior citizens" voting down the budget.

          (-2.38, -3.28) Independent thinker

          by TrueBlueDem on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:23:25 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Funny how that works. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TrueBlueDem, mattc129

            My brother and I are both graduated from school, but my mom doesn't vote against the local school budgets.

            Oh, right, my mom's a teacher...

            28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

            by TDDVandy on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:36:52 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  How do we convince otherwise? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TrueBlueDem, NoMoreLies

            I have family members who are like your mom. I wonder what the rationale is besides selfishness, and it is selfishness if you only care about good schools when your children are in school.

            •  We have allow the R's to drive the messaging (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              TrueBlueDem, NoMoreLies

              on schools for to long.  We have finally gotten to the point were teachers are demonized along with cops and firefighters.

              Lot's has been spent to drive these meme as the long march to Privatize public services is now a major goal of the hedge fund gang.  It's Crony Capitalism at it's worst.

              I know I always have a really hard time finding out about school board candidates since I don't have kids.  I think most voter leave that up to active parents so that is how so many RW get elected on boards.

              We really need to get people to understand that our great Public Education system is what made us #1 in the world.

              If we scrap our schools and colleges and go to Private, For Profit system we will lose.  We already have many tech CEO's whining that they can't find qualified workers and need to import workers via H1b visa programs.  Then maybe they figure it more cost effective to let India and China do the education and they'll just bring in these Indentured Servants for 6 year stints.

              Congressional elections have consequences!

              by Cordyc on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:04:58 AM PDT

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            •  Yup. Very short-sighted thinking too. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Cordyc, TDDVandy, NoMoreLies

              If you're fine with the schools falling apart once your kids are out, you're also accepting the diminished reputation of the district and the corresponding fall in property values.

              To their credit, they admit the hypocrisy and that "we can't afford this neighborhood anymore", so they will be moving to Florida soon, where nobody (present company excluded my dear Kossacks) gives a crap about the schools.

              (-2.38, -3.28) Independent thinker

              by TrueBlueDem on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:08:38 AM PDT

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            •  Simple. (0+ / 0-)

              Help them understand that these youth currently enrolled in the public education will be the ones caring for them in their old age, their golden years. Ask them just how dumb do they really want these future care-givers and policy makers to be.

              Nurse Kelley says my writing is brilliant and my soul is shiny - who am I to argue?
              Economic
              Left/Right: -7.75
              Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.51

              by Bud Fields on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 03:03:06 AM PDT

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          •  I just don't get that (0+ / 0-)

            I live in the suburbs, Silicon Valley.  My house is worth a shit-ton of money because it's in an excellent school district (it sure isn't worth it for any other reason since it's a 55 year old tiny rancher).  I'd be an idiot to EVER vote against any school bond or parcel tax.  It's those schools that are keeping my home values up.

            Why can't those other people see the connection?  If they won't vote in the interests of everyone, they could at least see they're voting to keep their investment in their homes, and to keep their neighborhood "Special."

            In capitalist America, bank robs you!

            by madhaus on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 10:27:25 AM PDT

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        •  Jersey is a special case where every little town (0+ / 0-)

          and burb wants to have total control of its own school involving the expense of a school board, a superintendant of schools, a financial administrator, and the entire host of other administrative specialists needed to run a school system here.  Half of these school boards run only one elementary school.  There is a steadfast refusal to give up local control and regionalize the school boards, but a continual moaning, wailing, and gnashing of teeth about how much all these school taxes are.  It could be much cheaper, but people want their beer to be less filling, but taste great, and as we beer drinkers know, that is impossible.

          And it feels like I'm livin'in the wasteland of the free ~ Iris DeMent, 1996

          by MrJersey on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 09:39:29 AM PDT

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          •  I'm FROM NJ too, grew up in Bergen County (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            calwatch

            And I am very familiar with the insanely high property taxes you'll find there.  While I despise Prop 13 (why should I pay 1/3 what my neighbor pays in taxes just because I've lived here longer), having your house randomly reassessed for amounts that bear little relation to market values isn't too wonderful either, and I've seen taxes three times the rate they are here... for new buyers.

            The school board situation here in Silicon Valley is even weirder, where school district lines cross the city borders all over the place.  At least in NJ the school board has a reason to work with the city governments or town councils.  Over here they often work at cross purposes, where the city will put in new housing because they need the developer fees while the school boards affected are screaming they don't have any more room for more students.  The only reason it isn't worse is this area is so built up there's little room to roll in more housing projects.

            I can't even count how many different school districts there are in San Jose (which is the 10th largest city in the country with around 950,000 residents).  The school district I'm in, Cupertino, embraces the entire city of Cupertino and pieces of five other cities.  The city I live in, Sunnyvale (pop 140,000), has three different elementary school districts and two High School districts.  The upscale community of Saratoga, a few miles from me, has SEVEN different school districts for a city of 30,000.  Four elementary and three high school districts.  And yes, there is indeed a Saratoga elementary district, this isn't because they're "too small" for their own.

            Our County Board of Ed proposed combining several districts to reduce the 31 in the county down to 15 or so.  They were right that onesie-twosie districts should be rolled up, but they blew it by proposing a few elementary districts combine with the high schools they feed to.  Some of those elementary districts were larger than the ones they held up as models.  Cupertino Unified SD has 25 schools, larger than the unified districts they touted which had 15, and they wanted it to merge with a neighboring school district and the 5 high schools in the high school district.

            Every single school board responded to the proposal (by law they had to) with a reason why it was a bad idea.  I do think the tiny ones need to go.

            By the way, Los Angeles has ONE school district, which also serves some adjoining cities.  It has 730 schools.  I don't think that's a good idea either.

            In capitalist America, bank robs you!

            by madhaus on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 10:39:40 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  It is not the salary that makes them upset, it is (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        NoMoreLies

        the salary with benefits that push them into the middle to high +$100 range, add to that the schools nickel and dime parents to death with sports costs and supply costs.  Our public schools have become private/public hybrids.  

        •  Around here they use a few of the top employee (0+ / 0-)

          big salaries and imply that everyone is making that and the local media go along with it.  It's the same with the Pension program.  Cherry pick a few top earners and keep repeating those numbers.  Never a word about the average worker.

          We also seemed to have had a full on assault on Public Employee Pensions after the 08 meltdown.  It was perfect timing after the huge losses in the markets to start whaling about how underfunded the pension were.  Well, duh.

          Congressional elections have consequences!

          by Cordyc on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:10:20 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Must be a blue state thing. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        fearlessfred14, dankester

        My mom makes, maybe, $60k a year as a 57-year-old public school teacher in the South.

        Cut your teachers' salaries to that level, and your schools can be just as good as Tennessee's!

        28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

        by TDDVandy on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:38:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Must be (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TDDVandy

          These teaching salaries sound astronomical.  My mother has been teaching in Florida for almost forty years and has all the extra qualifications that entitle her to more pay one can have, and she tops out less than 70k, I'm pretty sure.

          Of course a lot of schools down here are so bad that the students would be better off simply not attending them and watching tv all day.  I went to a couple of those.    

          "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."

          by dankester on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:11:34 AM PDT

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          •  Yeah. Lack of textbooks, sky high teacher turnover (0+ / 0-)

            Happily married to an underpaid, under-appreciated Florida charter school teacher, who is desperately looking for the exits.

            (-2.38, -3.28) Independent thinker

            by TrueBlueDem on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:22:44 AM PDT

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          •  It's all relative. The teaching salaries are high (0+ / 0-)

            here in the Northeast because teachers also have to live here in order to work here.  Rents and real estate are much lower in Florida than they are anywhere in the NYC metro area, so salary and benefits have to be higher in order to support a teaching staff.  Teachers cannot live at Florida prices in NYC.

            And it feels like I'm livin'in the wasteland of the free ~ Iris DeMent, 1996

            by MrJersey on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 09:42:39 AM PDT

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        •  That's mainly why I was so anti-Act 10 at first (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TrueBlueDem, TDDVandy, NoMoreLies

          Growing up in Nashville, I've always thought that "overpaid teacher" was a contradiction in terms. Teachers down there have to put up with all sorts of BS for so little money. And It's Not Working for Tennessee students.

          Male, 21, -4.75/-6.92, born and raised TN-05, now WI-02, remorseless supporter of Walker's recall. Pocan for Congress and Baldwin for Senate!

          by fearlessfred14 on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:13:19 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's a big mystery (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TrueBlueDem, TDDVandy, MrJersey

            How underfunded schools, with underpaid teachers, create so many under educated and under skilled people.  

            Oh wait, no it's not.  At all.  

            Every time I ever visited a cousin or other relative in a different part of the country and saw their school I couldn't believe what a palace they went to compared to my Florida schools.

            It's also not a coincidence those schools were much much better and turned out better students.  

            "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."

            by dankester on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:17:06 AM PDT

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          •  At first? (0+ / 0-)

            What changed your mind?

            And I don't know, Tennessee schools worked just fine for me, I think.  (But then I was motivated to learn on my own.)

            28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

            by TDDVandy on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:45:15 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  TN schools worked for me too (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              TDDVandy

              for the reasons you quote. And because I got lucky with what school I went to and when. But I also know many students who were badly left behind. I never changed my mind about Act 10 (Walker's notorious "budget repair bill"). I just found other reasons to hate it and despise Walker.

              Male, 21, -4.75/-6.92, born and raised TN-05, now WI-02, remorseless supporter of Walker's recall. Pocan for Congress and Baldwin for Senate!

              by fearlessfred14 on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:49:15 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Ah, right. (0+ / 0-)

                I lucked out, was in Shelby County Schools (possibly best schools in the state)... of course that's hardly representative of most of the schools in TN.

                28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

                by TDDVandy on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:52:30 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Yeah. Grew up on Long Island, NY (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TDDVandy, MrJersey, madhaus, wsexson

          One of the most expensive areas of the country. So admittedly the 80-90K numbers are not representative of the country as a whole.

          But even in low COL areas, somebody making $35K will resent the senior teacher making $55-60K. So will the a-hole teabagger making $120K.

          (-2.38, -3.28) Independent thinker

          by TrueBlueDem on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:18:16 AM PDT

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          •  well (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TrueBlueDem, NoMoreLies

            Scratch at the surface of a Teabagger hard enough, and what it really comes down to is that they just resent the fact that they have to pay taxes at all.

            They ultimately could care less about what their tax dollars are spent on; they just don't think they should have to pay taxes in the first place.

            28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

            by TDDVandy on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:43:55 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Absolutely (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              TDDVandy, NoMoreLies

              And sometimes I wish we could indulge their fantasies of a tax-free life so that they may experience first-hand the third-world hell that such ideology creates.

              There are dozens of countries that levy minimal or no taxes. Can't think of a single one a comfortable American would ever want to live in. But to the jingoistic, ethnocentric teabagger, those places just don't exist.

              (-2.38, -3.28) Independent thinker

              by TrueBlueDem on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:50:36 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  This issue is present in CA as well (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sinan, Cordyc

        We have public union employees retiring with outrageous guaranteed pensions that the tax-paying members of the state are on the hook for paying.

        Non-union employees in this right to work state are not happy about this considering that many of them cannot retire because their 401Ks are not sufficient to provide them with enough income to retire even sometimes at 65.

        They see public employees retiring with full and outrageously generous retirement packages after only 20 years of service meaning some of the individuals are only in their 40's.    This disparity causes lots of friction even for very progressive individuals who do not like the unequal treatment.

        It really is an issue that labor needs to address or this issue will be played out over and over again across the country.

        •  Agree completely. (0+ / 0-)

          I for one am truly pissed at some of these deals I see my friends getting in the greater SB area. We are talking huge bucks for life...

          Do facts matter anymore?

          by Sinan on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:53:08 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  It seems to me that they are cherry picking the (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wsexson

          top employees who had figured out way to game the system.  While the average teacher or worker only gets a modest pension.

          In CA it's something around 1% of all public pension that got these sweetheart deals.  Our local press goes along with this nonsense and the unions never seems to have a spokesperson rebut this misleading nonsense.  

          We also have the whole under funding issues to deal with, much of which was caused by a heavy load of toxic assets sold to CALPERS.  Were do you think those bundles of toxic mortgages ended up.  The mismanagement never gets talked about.

          Congressional elections have consequences!

          by Cordyc on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:21:05 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well the firefighters and police (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            NoMoreLies, calwatch

            definitely have better benefits than most other public sector unions from what I can tell but even the other public sector union members have outrageously generous packages compared to the private sector.

            Before you even start about that is a problem with the public sector, I'll say that I agree that 401Ks were a stupid giveaway to the private financial sector at the expense of older American's quality of life in retirement, however, the inequality that now exists is going to be a political problem for Democrats and public sector labor unions and shoving our heads in the sand about it isn't going to do anything to fix the problem.

      •  when $ and jobs get really (0+ / 0-)

        tight, and scarce and contingent, then people do get angry at those who have some security.  And nothing is tighter than health care these days, and our access, if we have it, has never been so contingent.

        It sounds also like Walker was able to very effectively focus all the campaign on the teachers unions, and their health benefits, and so to make them a sort of out group.

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