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View Diary: “Thank God I had a buddy at Burger King who could help me out” (274 comments)

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  •  Re: (15+ / 0-)
    The millenials and generations thereafter are going to have lower wages, less wealth and ultimately will have to accept a lower standard of living.
    I don't see why they should have to accept anything like this.

    Callate o despertaras la izquirda! - protest sign in Spain

    by gjohnsit on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 06:13:32 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Because it's not possible for all to live like us (16+ / 0-)

      That's my point - there is not enough technological or other innovation to overcome the fact that on a planet with finite resources, all 7 billion of us can't live like the average American does.  The jobs and the money will continue to move out of the US to lower wage countries.

      There are 1.1 billion people in China and less than 1% of those people live as well as the average American. As the jobs continue to flow there, their standard of living will increase, while people here in the US will have to accept lower wages just to keep the job they have. We already see pensions going away, health care retirement benefits going away. How are Gen X and younger ever going to prosper? Not that individuals here and there can't, but as the diarist notes - those without a college diploma will certainly see their standard of living decline as jobs aren't there for them, or the jobs that are there are so low wage they can't afford a home, they won't be able to save for retirement, etc.  

      Even those with a college degree see stagnant wages and by the time they pay off the debt they incurred to get their diploma, they too won't have the same wealth or standard of living as their parents.

      Liberalism is trust of the people tempered by prudence. Conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear. ~William E. Gladstone, 1866

      by absdoggy on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 06:30:04 AM PDT

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      •  They don't have to accept it (7+ / 0-)

        Because inevitably, down the road, they and those that come after them (in even worse shape) will be the majority of voters - provided we still have voting.  The idea that society will continue on a destructive path of race to the bottom presupposes that those generations lacking the power to change their own fates will adopt the same mindsets of those before them that put them in that condition.

        Change has always come from the younger generations who become unwilling to eat the shit sandwiches that their predecessors are more than willing to choke down just so that they might be able to ride out the current status quo.

      •  I think a patriotic America could..... (8+ / 0-)

        ....live on its own resources if we went about in an organized way. Let's say the President went on television tonight and said "Globalization is our enemy. There is no such thing as 'free' trade when you are competing with foreign governments that subsidize their industries to kill our own. China has declared economic war on us and is not our friend.  They steal our secrets and intellectual property. I am asking all Americans to only buy American as of one year from today. I am imposing a trade tarriff and I am proposing that Congress subsidize the industries that have left our shores, such as steel and other manufacturing. We will fast track the reindustrialization of America and we will be as independent as possible as soon as possible for our own survival.

        This is war. It has been war, we just didn't call it by its name, because wars used to be fought with guns. Now they are fought with goods and cheap labor.

    •  If they don't want to accept it, they need to (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ozsea1, SQD35R, Dirtandiron, worldlotus

      start creating their own jobs because the government and the 1% have sent all the rest overseas.

      •  Not exactly (20+ / 0-)

        If they don't want to accept it then they need to organize and FIGHT.

          What we are looking at are the same arguments used by the right-wing during the Great Depression.
           The left-wing didn't accept it back then, and they shouldn't just accept it now.

        Callate o despertaras la izquirda! - protest sign in Spain

        by gjohnsit on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 06:54:38 AM PDT

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        •  while I share your values (21+ / 0-)

          I share absdoggy's view that population pressure can and will distribute wealth -- and I'd go further to say that even though we don't get a nice suburban house out of it, even though America's standard of living will decline, this is a good thing.  In a connected world, national borders should not be like the razor wire of concentration camps, where the starving crowd and gaze on us eating our burgers.  Starving sucks, and those wide eyes make the burgers taste funny.

          When I put your values and absdoggy's view together, I come to this: we're going to be poorer, but we don't have to live badly.  We can have education, nice places to live, good food, and a civil society.  We just have to share the riches that remain more effectively. We have to consider whether our value system is about more forever or modest stustainability in an industrial context.   And this -- not rising income forever -- should be our goal.

          ...j'ai découvert que tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos dans une chambre.

          by jessical on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 07:47:55 AM PDT

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        •  Re (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Steve15, Dburn, mightymouse
          If they don't want to accept it then they need to organize and FIGHT.
          Fight who? The 1%?

          Oh, wait, Americans are the 1% (top 1% of global income are roughly people who make over $50k/year).

          The 95% of the rest of the world who aren't Americans don't care about Americans and our problems. They couldn't give a crap about American living standards, employment, or anything else. They just want to know who can give them the best quality business at the lowest price. If that company/person is in America, they'll do that. If the person is Swedish or Chinese, they'll do that. Hell, most Americans don't care about American living standards as shown by the rise of low-price shopping warehouses.

          No one owes America anything. We will survive (or not) based on our competitiveness, the ratio of economic outputs from our country to inputs to the country. And trade isolationism will cause a massive depression as well.

          (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
          Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

          by Sparhawk on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 08:56:12 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Historical comparison (6+ / 0-)
            And trade isolationism will cause a massive depression as well.
             And yet America had the highest tariffs in the world from the mid-19th Century to the mid-20th Century.
              And yet America went from some backwater secondary country to the most powerful, richest country in the world during that time. And that was BEFORE WWII.

            Callate o despertaras la izquirda! - protest sign in Spain

            by gjohnsit on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 09:20:36 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  As did nearly all industrialized nations. (5+ / 0-)

              Every nation on earth, practically, except for the USA has industrial policy and trade policy and works to support their own manufacturing base, their economic engine, their value creation factories of every type.

              In the USA, our industrial policy consists of "hey, let's have free markets."  

              Hasn't worked for the last 30 years and it isn't going to start working.  Until the USA changes its attitude about "free market bullshit", then we'll continue to slide downhill.

              What a Police State Looks Like: "On one side: soft human flesh, unprotected human skulls, cardboard signs, slogans they chant, armed with belief in 1st Amendment rights. On the other: helmets, body armor, guns, batons, chemical weapons." -- JanetRhodes

              by YucatanMan on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 11:24:33 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  in other words (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            gjohnsit, Bensdad, page394

            America will win the race to the bottom.

            "We're Number One!"

            Both parties are beholden to their corporate sponsors. The Democratic Party deigns to throw us a few bones from the table on which to gnaw and squabble over, but it's just kabuki.

            by ozsea1 on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 11:00:39 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You talk like there is a choice (0+ / 0-)

              There isn't.

              Poorer people in other countries are simply taking what they want. They care about you like you care about big shot bankers.

              (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
              Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

              by Sparhawk on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 02:04:41 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  so says you (0+ / 0-)

                Like you're looking forward to this.

                Both parties are beholden to their corporate sponsors. The Democratic Party deigns to throw us a few bones from the table on which to gnaw and squabble over, but it's just kabuki.

                by ozsea1 on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 07:56:09 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I am certainly... (0+ / 0-)

                  ...excited about the prospect of billions of people who used to live in shacks on rice paddies getting the opportunity for a decent life, as I am excited at the relentless rise in the mean and median global standard of living that has been occurring recently.

                  That being said, I of course have major concerns about global environmental sustainability and have grave doubts that 7 billion people can exist on this planet for any significant length of time.

                  (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                  Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                  by Sparhawk on Fri Jun 08, 2012 at 10:05:02 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  thank you (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Sparhawk

                    for the civil and revealing reply.

                    Both parties are beholden to their corporate sponsors. The Democratic Party deigns to throw us a few bones from the table on which to gnaw and squabble over, but it's just kabuki.

                    by ozsea1 on Fri Jun 08, 2012 at 12:24:05 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

        •  Where is this "left wing" you speak of? (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gjohnsit, SQD35R, worldlotus, George Hier

          During the Great Depression, there were leading politicians advocating the positions you advocate.

          The rank-and-file was lined up at soup kitchens across the nation.  The left wing back then consisted of a political party willing to repeatedly go to bat for the working (or nonworking) folks.

          Where is that party today?  

          What a Police State Looks Like: "On one side: soft human flesh, unprotected human skulls, cardboard signs, slogans they chant, armed with belief in 1st Amendment rights. On the other: helmets, body armor, guns, batons, chemical weapons." -- JanetRhodes

          by YucatanMan on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 11:21:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Starting a business requires (11+ / 0-)

        cash up front and for a time while the business can grow enough to become self sustaining, that is if it does not fail.  To think that those without jobs and often with student debt can start a business is folly.  

        "Growing up is for those who don't have the guts not to. Grow wise, grow loving, grow compassionate, but why grow up?" - Fiddlegirl

        by gulfgal98 on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 08:45:42 AM PDT

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        •  Absolutely. And, (7+ / 0-)

          starting a business to offer something of value to others requires a lot of expertise and experience, something young people likely haven't accrued yet. If you've worked in a good, challenging environment for a while and then go off on your own you're in a much better position to succeed.

          ~On, Wisconsin! On, Wisconsin! Raise her glowing flame!~ I am proud to say three generations of my family lived in WI. Though I live elsewhere, am with you in spirit!

          by sillia on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 09:09:32 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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