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View Diary: So, you guys have pretty much lost it, eh? (131 comments)

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  •  Is coherence not (23+ / 0-)

    an issue for you?

    And re: your #1 in your idiotic abortion points:  mucous is also a collection of cells -- are we to argue about the preservation of kleenex with die hard pro-lifers?

    I have zero clue what the "abortion diary" is to which you are referencing.

    Vi er alle norske " My faith in the Constitution is whole; it is complete; it is total." Barbara Jordan, 1974

    by gchaucer2 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 05:46:11 PM PDT

    •  S/he's a "member of the msm" (11+ / 0-)

      so obviously not.

      Mitt Romney: the Etch-A-Sketch candidate in the era of YouTube

      by Cali Scribe on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 05:50:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I think it's the one by Cherry the Tart (18+ / 0-)

      I have to agree that the title "Wherein I end the abortion debate" is more than a little over the top.  It's been on the rec list all day, and at the top for a while.  I read it, but didn't rec it because it's a nice rant but far from "ending" the abortion debate.  

      And I have to say that I agree about the "how to get SuperPac ads off TV" diary, too.  Media outlets hate regular political advertising because they have to charge below-market rates for it.  NFW they'd give up a steady stream of full-fare ads.

      Not destined to be popular, but I have to say I agree with much of this diary.

      •  Sarcasm (14+ / 0-)

        "Wherein I End The Abortion Debate" was not meant to literally end the abortion debate. The over-the-top title wasn't over the top, just Cherry's brand of humor.

        The problem with going with your gut as opposed to your head is that the former is so often full of shit. - Randy Chestnut

        by lotusmaglite on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 06:02:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I understand. But it didn't work for me, and (7+ / 0-)

          apparently didn't work for this diarist either.

          We've got a fucking huge fight ahead of us on abortion.  I think the suggestions in this diary are sound.

          •  Sound? (12+ / 0-)

            The diarist takes a shit on progressives because they don't honor the "science" then can't even get the science right, saying fetus-as-parasite is "technically true". It isn't. If the diarist wants to be a douchebag, at least the diarist can be a douchebag who gets their facts straight.

            Then there's this big pile of fail:

            Oh, that's right. It's not. The abortion issue is a debate about values. Liberty vs. Life. If you lean toward liberty, you'll lean pro-choice. You lean toward life being the dominant value, you'll lean toward the anti-abortion stance.
            I guess it's all about liberty and life, not women and their own bodies. Anything so that the womenfolk don't get to decide. Here's an idea: maybe it's about the historically nonstop attempts by insecure, authoritarian, patriarchal assholes to control women. Or maybe it's a complex issue that is not served by the bi-chromatic spectrum of thought the diarist puts into their "sound" suggestions.

            Oh, and my favorite: "Drop the snobbery." Yeah, pipe down, wimmin. Because if you show emotion, that means your arguments have no merit. What's that? 2+2=4? Not with that attitude, missy. Well, it's either that, or maybe nobody seriously intended to say that the argument was over.

            These aren't "sound" suggestions. They are exactly what the diarist pretends to address: self-righteous finger wagging at people who are "absolutely delusional". (Not to mention being the the twenty-first or twenty-second humorless paragon of thin skin to completely miss the dark humor of Cherry's diary title. And no, it wasn't that it "didn't work" for the diarist; the diarist simply missed it. This entire nagfest of a diary is predicated on taking Cherry's title dead seriously.)

            Oh, and while I'm at it, a big kiss my ass to the diarist for saying that retaking the Wisconsin State Senate isn't a win, and those who think it is are delusional. I guess stopping Scott Walker from calling the special sessions he stated he'd call to illegally ram more of his paymasters' agenda through the rubber-stamp legislature he's used to enact all of his paymasters' agenda is abject failure.

            But if it's any consolation, it appears I'm not the only one who thinks this diary is an embarrassment for the diarist. Wait, I didn't mean "consolation". I meant "Lawl".

            The problem with going with your gut as opposed to your head is that the former is so often full of shit. - Randy Chestnut

            by lotusmaglite on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 06:39:25 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I agree with you that retaking the senate in WI (9+ / 0-)

              was a big fucking deal.  I'm not 100% in agreement with the diarist, but I think they're making some good points (and some not so good).  For the most part the discussion in this comment thread - when it's actually discussion, and not just treating it as a flat out troll diary - is pretty good.  I think you've made some good points, and so have others.  

            •  Do you seriously think the anti-choice (4+ / 5-)

              people are anti-choice because they want the government controlling their body?

              Every woman that is against abortion is looking forward to getting knocked up and being forced to carry the pregnancy to term? That's their reasoning?

              You're the whole point I wrote this diary.

              And far too stupid to ever get it.

              •  You don't help make your case by insulting (14+ / 0-)

                the commenter.  lotusmaglite is not a stupid person, just someone who disagrees with you.  I actually agree with much of what you said, but didn't particularly like the way you said some of it.  We all have things we need to learn about making our case.

              •  Do you seriously just not get sarcasm at all? (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                wilderness voice, tardis10

                It's not just about control, it's not just about liberty, or life, or political maneuvering, or any one thing, or any of the false dichotomies presented about it. That was the point. The thing you call me stupid for? That was me emulating you.

                Good work, genius. You not only failed to understand the point, you picked out the one thing that sounded just like you and called me "too stupid to ever get it" based on it. You're just the gift that keeps on giving.

                You're the "whole point I wrote" that part.

                The problem with going with your gut as opposed to your head is that the former is so often full of shit. - Randy Chestnut

                by lotusmaglite on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 07:09:08 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  If that's true (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  efraker, cdreid

                  Why do you think they believe what they believe?

                  Where does that 50% "pro-life" come from?

                  You don't think this is either/or.

                  I'm pretty sure the anti-abortion folks do.

                  And that you need to argue against their perspective, not for yours.

                  •  That's how you lose (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    wilderness voice, 3goldens, tardis10

                    ...an argument - accept the opposition's frame. Here, let's use that in an example:

                    So, in calling people who celebrate taking back the WI State Senate as a win "delusional", do you not have the intelligence to see why it's a win, or were you just being a douche?

                    See how you can't win, in that frame? See how no matter what you say, you've already admitted 1) it was a win, and 2) you're either stupid or a jerk? But by your suggestion, that is exactly what you must do in order to seriously engage with the opposition.

                    Their "either/or" is false. Accepting it is automatically losing that argument. Game over.

                    That's not how you win. It's not even how you stalemate.

                    The problem with going with your gut as opposed to your head is that the former is so often full of shit. - Randy Chestnut

                    by lotusmaglite on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 07:39:23 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  The WI Recall loss is a fact. (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      efraker, cdreid

                      Because it was a loss. The goal of the recall was to recall Walker. It didn't happen. It's a loss.

                      The point I make with the abortion debate is that it is about values. Something subjective. Something that can't be proven. That's not an empirical fact.

                      Arguing from their value set is the only way you can change their minds. Everyone else that is inclined to make the choice argument already knows it, and already makes it. There really aren't a lot of undecideds left.

                      If pro-choice was polling +60%, I wouldn't bother, because it wouldn't matter.

                      But it's not. So you have to engage.

                      •  Your "facts" do not resemble our Earth facts (4+ / 0-)
                        Because it was a loss. The goal of the recall was to recall Walker. It didn't happen. It's a loss.
                        Thanks. Glad you're around to tell us all what our goals are. (Note: This is sarcasm. I'm not really grateful, and I'm not happy to have you define the recall movement's goals. I say this because you seem to have trouble seeing sarcasm. Hope that helps. [Note Note: That was also sarcasm. I don't care if it helps.])

                        No, the goal was not to recall Walker. That would have been just one means to the goal. The goal was to stop Scott Walker's paymasters' agenda from being implemented with such absurd ease. Scott Walker is nobody. He's an interchangeable pawn. It's the agenda that's important. That's what was halted when the Democrats picked up 3 seats and took back the Senate.

                        I won't even bother explaining the success of building movement infrastructure until the above simple point sinks in.

                        The point I make with the abortion debate is that it is about values.
                        And the next point you make is that we must accept their framework for the debate. Game over, we lose.

                        The problem with going with your gut as opposed to your head is that the former is so often full of shit. - Randy Chestnut

                        by lotusmaglite on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 08:31:37 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Think of it this way. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          efraker

                          You're attacking their argument.

                          You're dissecting the life argument, explaining why it is inferior to the choice argument.

                          And no. Walker was the target. The GOP Senators were being punished for supporting him, but Walker was the point.

                          I don't know if you want me to do a Kos Diary study to prove this or what, but it really should be evident.

                          •  All that needs to be said (3+ / 0-)
                            And no. Walker was the target. The GOP Senators were being punished for supporting him, but Walker was the point.
                            That's all that needs to be said. I'm glad you weren't there to plan strategy in Wisconsin, because we'd now have Scott Walker calling a special session to destroy what's left of Wisconsin, and his allies in the Senate would be free to make it happen.

                            It would be nice to live in your world, where killing Osama Bin Laden ended terrorism, convicting Bernie Madoff ended the predation on America by the greedy, and Ted Haggard's flameout reduced the religious right to rubble.

                            Unfortunately, we live in the real world, where lopping the figurehead off an encroaching movement does nothing but put a meaninglessly similar, interchangeable face in it's place. Because of that, we have to make sure we're working to stop the movement, not their PR guy.

                            To put it another way, there's a reason why the diary you slagged got 205 recs and yours got 5. You have no idea what you're talking about, and everyone knows it. Do yourself a favor and spend some time reading the work of people who know more than you do before writing any more diaries. Otherwise, you'll be stuck with the insulting, empty, clueless finger-wagging you've been doing.

                            Bored now.

                            The problem with going with your gut as opposed to your head is that the former is so often full of shit. - Randy Chestnut

                            by lotusmaglite on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 11:12:20 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Goalpost now located in the parking lot (0+ / 0-)
                          •  Not really (5+ / 0-)

                            Commenter is merely refusing to let you decide where the goalposts are located.

                            I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
                            but I fear we will remain Democrats.

                            by twigg on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 11:58:43 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

              •  I'm laying odds that you're a man n/t (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                lotusmaglite, Melanie in IA, JayRaye
                •  I'll lay odds (0+ / 1-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Hidden by:
                  JayRaye

                  you feel the need to stereotype people so you can hate them.

                  Want to talk to some VERY good people who are prolife? I even know some VERY good people who are right wingers. Who are conservative. But its easier to shut off the mind and soul and hate isnt it. Enjoy your sexism

                  A man is born as many men but dies as a single one.--Martin Heidegger

                  by cdreid on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 05:43:42 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  No need here to accuse anyone of being a hater. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    VetGrl

                    WE NEVER FORGET Our Labor Martyrs: a project to honor the men, women and children who lost their lives in Freedom's Cause. For May: Martyrs of the San Diego Free Speech Fight, Spring 1912.

                    by JayRaye on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 03:41:34 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  But points for irony nevertheless (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      JayRaye

                      I actually chuckled a bit when I read the reply because two of the people I love most in this world -- I call them Mom and Dad -- are

                      VERY good people who are prolife ... VERY good people who are right wingers. Who are conservative.
                      •  And when I was in construction union, I (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        VetGrl

                        often pointed out the sexism of my union brothers. That did not mean I hated them.

                        But the worst sexists do love that "man hater" meme.

                        Anger does not equal hate. People tend to angry when their basic human rights are being stripped.

                        Naming them a "hater" is just another way of telling them to shut the fuck up and relinquish their rights quietly, like good little girls.

                        WE NEVER FORGET Our Labor Martyrs: a project to honor the men, women and children who lost their lives in Freedom's Cause. For May: Martyrs of the San Diego Free Speech Fight, Spring 1912.

                        by JayRaye on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 04:50:00 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

              •  I think the point you are missing is that (7+ / 0-)

                the argument about abortion can never be won, in the conventional sense. As you point out, most of the serious antichoice folks have a deeply held belief that the fetus really is a "person," and that abortion really and truly represents murder. There is no possibility of compromise with such people. There is no way for an honest person who believes that abortion is murder to justify any compromise. No scientific or religious explanation will persuade these people.
                      What Cherry recognizes is that the only argument that will ultimately work for us is for the courts to hold that her rights of self-determination and privacy absolutely trump the squeamishness and the moral resolution of the antichoice people, no matter what. That was the point of her diary.

                -7.25, -6.26

                We are men of action; lies do not become us.

                by ER Doc on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 07:47:09 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Actually, they want the government controlling (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Radiowalla, lotusmaglite

                others' bodies. They themselves would never have an abortion - or so they believe - so they don't worry about the government sticking its nose in their private parts. But for other folks, they're fine with it. Kinda like the homophobes who are straight - supposedly - so have no worry about the government controlling whom they would love. Come to think of it, scratch an anti-choicer and the odds are you'll find a homophobe. And vice versa.

                Just another faggity fag socialist fuckstick homosinner!

                by Ian S on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 08:38:37 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  wilderness voice: (7+ / 0-)

                I understand why you dropped the HR. He called me stupid, and that's HR-worthy. However, he is in fact retaliating after I obliquely referred to him as a douchebag and explicitly told him to kiss my ass.

                Now, it's your HR; do with it as you like. But in the interest of fairness, were I in your shoes, I would do one of two things:

                1. Lift the HR against member of the msm and chalk it up to a heated exchange, or
                2. Drop one on my comment, as I threw out an ad-hom, too. I could say it was once-removed, simply saying "if", but that's a cowardly dodge.

                I will also message you, just in case you don't circle back for this.

                The problem with going with your gut as opposed to your head is that the former is so often full of shit. - Randy Chestnut

                by lotusmaglite on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 08:38:49 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Uprating to counter HR. (0+ / 0-)

                Insult was clearly a response to first punch "douchebag" comment in preceding comment, yet wilderness voice did not put an HR in that comment.

                The bourgeoisie had better watch out for me, all throughout this so called nation. We don't want your filthy money, we don't need your innocent bloodshed, we just want to end your world. ~H.R.

                by chipmo on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 06:07:09 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I agree that whomever lands the first punch (0+ / 0-)

                  is the guilty party. IMHO the diarist launched the first punches with his title  and the "delusional" comment.

                  The comment I did not HR did a great job of articulating and dissecting what was wrong with the diary. While calling the diarist a "douchebag" was rude, it was understandable, the way it was done was entertaining, and it was a response in character with the diarist's writing.  OTOH, the diarist calling the commenter stupid was not only an insult, it was also a mischaracterization in that the comment was anything but stupid.

              •  Personal insult. (3+ / 0-)

                One donut penalty. And shame on the upraters.

                Cogito, ergo Democrata.

                by Ahianne on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 07:46:04 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  You get credit for standing up to the crowd (6+ / 0-)

        I dislike denial whether it's about climate change or the Wisconsin results. There has been a bout of wishful thinking on the rec list since the Wisconsin disappointment.

        And Cherry's post wouldn't win over anyone who wasn't already on our side.

        The best thing I have seen this week was the handling of the troll by the wonderful lady from RI. She knows how to win people over.

        look for my eSci diary series Thursday evening.

        by FishOutofWater on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 06:17:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Cherry Poptart was one of my fav dirty comix (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lotusmaglite

        Damn I miss the 70s.

        Romney 2012 - Hey, what else are you gonna do? Vote for the BLACK GUY?

        by Fordmandalay on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 07:09:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Also, re: "collection of cells" (12+ / 0-)

      I think we lose the argument if we equate a fetus with snot.  There is a moral dimension to this debate.

      Our side views a developing fetus as more than snot, too.  When we talk about various environmental issues, the effects of toxins on pregnant women and their fetus is something we care about.  When we talk about workers' rights, we talk about things that have an adverse affect on pregnant women.  When we talk about health care, especially women's health care, we focus a lot on pre-natal care.

      The question is, does a fetus have more rights than the woman who is carrying it?  That's where the left differs from the right.  The right insists, from the moment the sperm hits the target, that thing has rights that outweigh those of the mother (even if the sperm came from a rapist or her brother).  The right insists that a woman take responsibility for a broken condom, even if it means giving up a promising career and a chance to provide a great life for some children ten years down the line.  They insist that a terribly deformed child, who will experience pain their entire life and might never experience pleasure is still a "blessing from God" who must be brought to term.  Some elements of the right insist that a woman should be forced to carry a child even if it might kill her.

      We don't.

      Our argument is that a woman can make her own informed decision about what's right for her, her family and her future.  She knows that collection of cells better than anyone else on this planet; she can make the best decision on its fate.  We care about the unborn, but we continue to care about each human after they're born, too.

      (except Sarah Palin.  I really don't give a fuck about anything she does, ever, anywhere.)

      •  I'm not comparing (10+ / 0-)

        a fetus with snot -- I'm talking about the point of "living cells."

        I was born, raised Catholic and was in the convent.  I honestly do not have a moral dilemma about most abortions.  I do have ethical considerations about mandated abortions or selecting eye, hair color abortions, or late term for no other reason than "oops" abortions, but other than that -- I really don't have a need any longer to have a discussion with pro-lifers.  I've already had that battle.

        And I didn't read CherrytheTart's diary because I generally wouldn't want to read his/her stuff.

        I find it interesting (not including you) that many pro-lifers have or had no problem with sterilizing and/or lobotomizing those considered to be of lower IQ back in the day.

        Vi er alle norske " My faith in the Constitution is whole; it is complete; it is total." Barbara Jordan, 1974

        by gchaucer2 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 06:31:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And many "pro-lifers" are fine with the death (14+ / 0-)

          penalty, declaring bullshit wars and "stand your ground".  They're fine with denying people healthcare, fine with gutting food safety regulations, fine with eliminating OSHA, fine with killing the whole fucking planet to get a few more barrels of oil.

          But choosing not to carry a five-week-old fetus to term?  You're a murderer.

          Fuck them.

          •  Because they all fit your stereotype (0+ / 0-)

            not that youd talk to "them".. because they are "other" and of course Evil. But you feel how they know so .... just dumb.

            A man is born as many men but dies as a single one.--Martin Heidegger

            by cdreid on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 05:47:45 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Actually, I know and regularly talk to a lot of (0+ / 0-)

              them.  My tone is respectful, because I do see them a (mostly) good people at heart.  I just fundamentally disagree with them on a number of issues, and some of the internal inconsistencies drive me nuts - hence some ranting here when I'm among friends.  I don't see them as dumb or evil, but I do see that they're getting a lot of misinformation.

              And though I think we probably won't ever see eye-to-eye on abortion, they probably can be brought around to agree about healthcare for all, safety regulations and a few other issues.

              •  Youre tone is incredibly condescending (0+ / 0-)

                I doubt seriously you talk to any of these people in a serious way.

                Im in neither camp on abortion. We have been forced into an idiotic, destructive false dichotomy by extremist Nutjobs on both sides.

                I have friends and family who are very prolife and for very moral reasons. I have friend and family who are prochoice for very moral reasons. None of the above are evil or want "men to control womens bodies" or "to make abortion the new birth control " as the absolute batshit crazy extremes paint the other side.

                But there will continue to be pain and suffering because these nuts have their reactionary, emotion boners for this issue. They get off on it.

                If adults were in charge some abortion would be legal, some would be entirely illegal and defined as murder. All children would be cared for financially and otherwise and a woman wouldnt have to see a pregnancy as something to celebrate and dread at the same time. But we cant have that because the emotional masterbation and hate would have to end.

                A man is born as many men but dies as a single one.--Martin Heidegger

                by cdreid on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 07:54:35 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You don't know me, and you don't know my family. (0+ / 0-)

                  You're choosing the wrong person to lecture.  I'll let it go at that.

                  •  I didnt intend it to sound (0+ / 0-)

                    like i was lecturing the actual intent was to reflect how your post sounded. I do apologise if i came across wrong. I do that more than a bit.

                    It sounds like youre saying "we must correct our lessers in the correct way of thinking". We need more humans talking and fewer issue-extremists and politicians trying to manipulate people. Right now in america there are single parents living in hell, homeless children and families, people being pushed to abortions they dont want and pushed away from abortions they are desparate for so a tiny percentage of whackjobs whos only real concern  are their emotional needs can get their rocks off.

                    Wouldnt you rather live in a world where every kid had a healthy happy childhood, pregnancy wasnt something to be terrified of, where all legitimate abortion was legal , safe, inexpensive and all illegitimate abortion was outlawed?

                    A man is born as many men but dies as a single one.--Martin Heidegger

                    by cdreid on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 08:17:42 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

      •  Oh, and p.s. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lineatus, Dirtandiron, Gemina13, Ahianne

        you are one of the select few on this site I respect because of your total respect for life.  That is what makes the discussion interesting.

        Blessings, lineatus.

        Vi er alle norske " My faith in the Constitution is whole; it is complete; it is total." Barbara Jordan, 1974

        by gchaucer2 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 06:34:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  You dont get to frame the debate (0+ / 0-)

        thats an old dishonest trick of .. well usually simpletons. Designed to only allow the ends you desire.

        You want to win people over.. and maybe learn yourself.. and maybe change yourself.. talk to some prolife people you like and respect and try to understand why. Talk to them in a kind and respectful way as you would hope they do you and you'll probably both learn some things and find you agree on most things.

        A man is born as many men but dies as a single one.--Martin Heidegger

        by cdreid on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 05:46:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Actually, framing the debate is the first step (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Ahianne

          to victory.  You just need to frame it in a way that will allow your opposition to accept it.

          Where we've lost ground is exactly where we've let Republicans win the framing wars.

          If you don't frame the debate, you lose.

          •  Its dishonest and pathetic (0+ / 0-)

            Youre also assuming all democrats are prochoice. They arent. Youre assuming all republicans are prolife. They arent. Youre assuming everyone who is prochoice or prolife has a certain mindset. They dont.

            Actual statistically accurate surveys have been done on the issue and the median person is somewhere in the middle. They abhore late term abortion and abortion as birth control. They also abhor the idea of anyone forced to carry a pregnancy of rape or incest to term. They tend to support the absolute right of abortion in the first three months.. etc etc etc...

            Life isnt a game. Human beings arent opponents to be crushed by any means, honest or dishonest, available.

            Thinking like that is why we are where we are.

            A man is born as many men but dies as a single one.--Martin Heidegger

            by cdreid on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 07:58:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I don't assume any of those things, thanks. (0+ / 0-)

              Nor do I look at politics as a game, but a deadly serious question of who has power, and how that power is used to help or hurt other people.

              Not that I assume explaining that will change your opinions one bit, but I didn't feel like letting your incorrect framing of my opinions and beliefs stand unchallenged.

              •  Framing (0+ / 0-)

                is dishonesty by definition. When people here started the whole "we should frame this this way" i raised cane. They werent talking about breaking out of the gop verbal traps. they were talking about flat out dishonesty to achieve a goal. Last  i checked any means to an end was a republican belief. I >expect< the left and democrats to attempt to be honest, logical, and to base their beliefs and actions around integrity.

                A man is born as many men but dies as a single one.--Martin Heidegger

                by cdreid on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 11:06:55 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  You are exactly (0+ / 0-)

      the type of person who needs to let this diary sink in.

      Perhaps if i made it simpler:

      these stereotypical hatefilled rants and insults of those who disagree with you partially or totally are not going to help you win the debate anymore than it will make the extremists on the other side win the debate . Perhaps it is time to debate like rational humans who indeed, likely have close friends on the other side of the debate

      A man is born as many men but dies as a single one.--Martin Heidegger

      by cdreid on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 05:40:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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