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View Diary: So, you guys have pretty much lost it, eh? (131 comments)

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  •  Also, re: "collection of cells" (12+ / 0-)

    I think we lose the argument if we equate a fetus with snot.  There is a moral dimension to this debate.

    Our side views a developing fetus as more than snot, too.  When we talk about various environmental issues, the effects of toxins on pregnant women and their fetus is something we care about.  When we talk about workers' rights, we talk about things that have an adverse affect on pregnant women.  When we talk about health care, especially women's health care, we focus a lot on pre-natal care.

    The question is, does a fetus have more rights than the woman who is carrying it?  That's where the left differs from the right.  The right insists, from the moment the sperm hits the target, that thing has rights that outweigh those of the mother (even if the sperm came from a rapist or her brother).  The right insists that a woman take responsibility for a broken condom, even if it means giving up a promising career and a chance to provide a great life for some children ten years down the line.  They insist that a terribly deformed child, who will experience pain their entire life and might never experience pleasure is still a "blessing from God" who must be brought to term.  Some elements of the right insist that a woman should be forced to carry a child even if it might kill her.

    We don't.

    Our argument is that a woman can make her own informed decision about what's right for her, her family and her future.  She knows that collection of cells better than anyone else on this planet; she can make the best decision on its fate.  We care about the unborn, but we continue to care about each human after they're born, too.

    (except Sarah Palin.  I really don't give a fuck about anything she does, ever, anywhere.)

    •  I'm not comparing (10+ / 0-)

      a fetus with snot -- I'm talking about the point of "living cells."

      I was born, raised Catholic and was in the convent.  I honestly do not have a moral dilemma about most abortions.  I do have ethical considerations about mandated abortions or selecting eye, hair color abortions, or late term for no other reason than "oops" abortions, but other than that -- I really don't have a need any longer to have a discussion with pro-lifers.  I've already had that battle.

      And I didn't read CherrytheTart's diary because I generally wouldn't want to read his/her stuff.

      I find it interesting (not including you) that many pro-lifers have or had no problem with sterilizing and/or lobotomizing those considered to be of lower IQ back in the day.

      Vi er alle norske " My faith in the Constitution is whole; it is complete; it is total." Barbara Jordan, 1974

      by gchaucer2 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 06:31:56 PM PDT

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      •  And many "pro-lifers" are fine with the death (14+ / 0-)

        penalty, declaring bullshit wars and "stand your ground".  They're fine with denying people healthcare, fine with gutting food safety regulations, fine with eliminating OSHA, fine with killing the whole fucking planet to get a few more barrels of oil.

        But choosing not to carry a five-week-old fetus to term?  You're a murderer.

        Fuck them.

        •  Because they all fit your stereotype (0+ / 0-)

          not that youd talk to "them".. because they are "other" and of course Evil. But you feel how they know so .... just dumb.

          A man is born as many men but dies as a single one.--Martin Heidegger

          by cdreid on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 05:47:45 AM PDT

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          •  Actually, I know and regularly talk to a lot of (0+ / 0-)

            them.  My tone is respectful, because I do see them a (mostly) good people at heart.  I just fundamentally disagree with them on a number of issues, and some of the internal inconsistencies drive me nuts - hence some ranting here when I'm among friends.  I don't see them as dumb or evil, but I do see that they're getting a lot of misinformation.

            And though I think we probably won't ever see eye-to-eye on abortion, they probably can be brought around to agree about healthcare for all, safety regulations and a few other issues.

            •  Youre tone is incredibly condescending (0+ / 0-)

              I doubt seriously you talk to any of these people in a serious way.

              Im in neither camp on abortion. We have been forced into an idiotic, destructive false dichotomy by extremist Nutjobs on both sides.

              I have friends and family who are very prolife and for very moral reasons. I have friend and family who are prochoice for very moral reasons. None of the above are evil or want "men to control womens bodies" or "to make abortion the new birth control " as the absolute batshit crazy extremes paint the other side.

              But there will continue to be pain and suffering because these nuts have their reactionary, emotion boners for this issue. They get off on it.

              If adults were in charge some abortion would be legal, some would be entirely illegal and defined as murder. All children would be cared for financially and otherwise and a woman wouldnt have to see a pregnancy as something to celebrate and dread at the same time. But we cant have that because the emotional masterbation and hate would have to end.

              A man is born as many men but dies as a single one.--Martin Heidegger

              by cdreid on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 07:54:35 AM PDT

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              •  You don't know me, and you don't know my family. (0+ / 0-)

                You're choosing the wrong person to lecture.  I'll let it go at that.

                •  I didnt intend it to sound (0+ / 0-)

                  like i was lecturing the actual intent was to reflect how your post sounded. I do apologise if i came across wrong. I do that more than a bit.

                  It sounds like youre saying "we must correct our lessers in the correct way of thinking". We need more humans talking and fewer issue-extremists and politicians trying to manipulate people. Right now in america there are single parents living in hell, homeless children and families, people being pushed to abortions they dont want and pushed away from abortions they are desparate for so a tiny percentage of whackjobs whos only real concern  are their emotional needs can get their rocks off.

                  Wouldnt you rather live in a world where every kid had a healthy happy childhood, pregnancy wasnt something to be terrified of, where all legitimate abortion was legal , safe, inexpensive and all illegitimate abortion was outlawed?

                  A man is born as many men but dies as a single one.--Martin Heidegger

                  by cdreid on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 08:17:42 AM PDT

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    •  Oh, and p.s. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lineatus, Dirtandiron, Gemina13, Ahianne

      you are one of the select few on this site I respect because of your total respect for life.  That is what makes the discussion interesting.

      Blessings, lineatus.

      Vi er alle norske " My faith in the Constitution is whole; it is complete; it is total." Barbara Jordan, 1974

      by gchaucer2 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 06:34:21 PM PDT

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    •  You dont get to frame the debate (0+ / 0-)

      thats an old dishonest trick of .. well usually simpletons. Designed to only allow the ends you desire.

      You want to win people over.. and maybe learn yourself.. and maybe change yourself.. talk to some prolife people you like and respect and try to understand why. Talk to them in a kind and respectful way as you would hope they do you and you'll probably both learn some things and find you agree on most things.

      A man is born as many men but dies as a single one.--Martin Heidegger

      by cdreid on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 05:46:51 AM PDT

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      •  Actually, framing the debate is the first step (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        to victory.  You just need to frame it in a way that will allow your opposition to accept it.

        Where we've lost ground is exactly where we've let Republicans win the framing wars.

        If you don't frame the debate, you lose.

        •  Its dishonest and pathetic (0+ / 0-)

          Youre also assuming all democrats are prochoice. They arent. Youre assuming all republicans are prolife. They arent. Youre assuming everyone who is prochoice or prolife has a certain mindset. They dont.

          Actual statistically accurate surveys have been done on the issue and the median person is somewhere in the middle. They abhore late term abortion and abortion as birth control. They also abhor the idea of anyone forced to carry a pregnancy of rape or incest to term. They tend to support the absolute right of abortion in the first three months.. etc etc etc...

          Life isnt a game. Human beings arent opponents to be crushed by any means, honest or dishonest, available.

          Thinking like that is why we are where we are.

          A man is born as many men but dies as a single one.--Martin Heidegger

          by cdreid on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 07:58:29 AM PDT

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          •  I don't assume any of those things, thanks. (0+ / 0-)

            Nor do I look at politics as a game, but a deadly serious question of who has power, and how that power is used to help or hurt other people.

            Not that I assume explaining that will change your opinions one bit, but I didn't feel like letting your incorrect framing of my opinions and beliefs stand unchallenged.

            •  Framing (0+ / 0-)

              is dishonesty by definition. When people here started the whole "we should frame this this way" i raised cane. They werent talking about breaking out of the gop verbal traps. they were talking about flat out dishonesty to achieve a goal. Last  i checked any means to an end was a republican belief. I >expect< the left and democrats to attempt to be honest, logical, and to base their beliefs and actions around integrity.

              A man is born as many men but dies as a single one.--Martin Heidegger

              by cdreid on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 11:06:55 AM PDT

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