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View Diary: ONE MORE UPDATE: WATCH THIS. NOW. (w/"Shut yer pie hole" update) (198 comments)

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  •  This from the guy calling the poster 'dickish'? (0+ / 0-)

    Srlsly?  Check the beam in your own, bud.

    As for why I said I'm Catholic, its to show I'm frakking entitled to criticize the Church and you can't claim I'm some oggy-boogy antheist 'anti-Christian' rather than deal with the pt raised by the poster, as you did in your comment.  

    This pt is quite simple: If Churches of various Christian donominations don't want to be painted by the Hate-brush, it is invumbent on them to condemn it as loudly as the Haters proclaim it.  Silence only proves complicity and acceptance in this case.  Indeed, the Bishops prove the commentor's pt by claiming their homophobia is required to be a Christian.

    But rather than deal with the merits of his argument, you just insulted and ridiculed him.

    Hence, my questions of what agenda you are servicing by your 'unnecessarily dickish' response to him - and me - are salient.

    I don't expect you to acknowledge or understand any of this though as judging by your 'response' to my mild and undeniably factually true comment I seem to have hit a raw nerve.

    Might look into that if I were you.

    •  Thank you for your fuller explanation. (0+ / 0-)

      I disagree with kerplunk's premise because I really don't think anti-gayness is the main problem.

      It may be for the evangelical bunch who worship money more than God. I'm not in that group.

      No, I think the main problem with mainline Christians is their inability to see the need for and willingness to do what is needed to help the sick, poor, naked, imprisoned, etc. It's easier to just sit in the pew on Sunday and ignore it the rest of the week.

      If you think only Catholics can complain about sexual abuse and molestation by priests you are wrong, wrong, wrong. Children need to be safe - if your kid isn't, neither is any other child.

      Do you think only employees and alums of Penn State can have any opinion about Jerry Sandusky's actions?

      The randyness of the priests is a problem those  of your in the church will have to deal with, unless you take too long and secular law enforcement gets off its complacent ass and throws the pedophiles/rapists and their enablers (Pope Ben Rat, anyone) in jail.

      And I think you - in the Catholic pews - have closed your eyes for too long.

      •  Ty for your more civil tone. IMO you miss critica (0+ / 0-)

        l pts in this debate which render your 'blame the flock' pt irrelevant, if not dangeously misdirected.  

        1) The Catholic Chruch is the largest Christian denomination by far.  Hence, what it says is a huge part of what the Christian message and position on any issue is taken to be, especially when its the same as the louder and flashier (and thus more media dominating) evangelical and fundie protestants.

        The largest part of the latter have long been homophobic and dismissive of social justice.  And rabidly Thuglican. The rise of the Prosperity gospel became a way for them to weld the Thug party's anti-tax/pro-money politics with their crusader theology which required making and hating an 'enemy' (i.e., the world is against you persecuted flock and you must fight - and give me your $ - the 'evil' abortionists, feminists, gays, liberals, Muslims, Kenyans, enemy of the month).  It did so to the detriment of both religion and politics, feeding on the worst of human nature and remaking both those sects and the Thuglican party over to the worse.

        The Bishops have now explicitly joined the American Catholic chruch to both those sects and the Thugs.  The cancer of Hate, Fear and Greed that has conquers those protestant sects and the Thugs, has now officially become the heart of the Church's and the core of its message.  

        And all because of a couple of Popes and some Cardinals obsession with controlling repoduction and naughty bits.  Satan couoldn't have planned the Church's corruption, comeupperance and doom better (if you believe in that stuff).

        2) Simply put, most chruches, especially the Catholic, are not democratic in any way.  They are dictatorial or Oligarchic at best.  Any laity 'uprising' would just be dealt with as it alwaya has - by excommunication, shaming, etc., still powerful weapons to control individuals (especially in communities where the sects have large followings and b/c religion is often a family affair, meaning you have to reject and accept condemnation from family as well as friends and large parts of the community at large.  And this all in the name of Love?)  The only 'democratic' avenue open to dissenters is leaving that sect, which leaves the sect extant and largely intact, especially in power, influence and wealth.
        So you are shooting at the wrong target.

        Indeed, by blaming the flock you are strengthening the haters in the sect, b/c you confirm the crusader and 'under attack' and victim narratives.  

        By far the better path is to pt out the simple truth that Jesus never said an unkind word (or really any words) about gays or contraception or even abortion, but did say a whole lot about Love and Giving unto Ceaser and helping the Least Among us - all of which seems awfully contrary to what the hierarchy is preaching.  That's how most American Catholics came to pretty much ignore much of the more reactionary positions of the Roman hierarchy during the 20th C.  The only reason we got Vatican 2 was b/c the Roman church finally realized it was going to lose American Catholics and alot of the hierarchy had been put their under John and more liberal leadership.

        3) But the first rule in dealing with this problem (and frankly Crisis in christianity) is admitting it exists.  IOW, confronting Christians with how their message seems to be becoming one of Hate, Intolerance and Greed.  In a constructive way of course.

        •  From what you said, the RCC being so big and (0+ / 0-)

          all, your answer to 3) is

          IOW, confronting Christians Catholics with how their message seems to be becoming one of Hate, Intolerance and Greed.
          Which is up to you, if it is that important to you.
          •  I already do that, as do many American Catholics. (0+ / 0-)

            The Bishops alienation of large parts of the flock is well known.  That's why the media keeps asking how many Catholic voters they'll affect.

            Other Christian sects tho, especially evangelical and fundie, seem to follow their preachers like lemmings.  And whatever the Bishops bring to that crusade just makes it that much more powerful.  

            Which is why all Christians must be confronted with the painful facts.  Christ would.

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