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View Diary: Unbelievable - A Cross Burning in 2012! (104 comments)

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  •  Is this really the place for jokes? (0+ / 0-)
    •  If you are addressing me... (6+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kyril, Mayfly, OrganizedCrime, rubyr, Cedwyn, golem

      ...I am not joking.

      Racism in the upper Midwest (see this diary)  & in certain Western states is way, way out of control.

      Believe me, Southerners cringe upon the beholding.

      When Fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in excess body fat and carrying a misspelled sign.

      by wyvern on Sat Jun 16, 2012 at 02:32:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes you are, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        The way you worded it wrt the South, a place you know is awfully racist...

        It's obvious you were trying to be clever and ironic.

        And now you're lying about it, which is even more insincere and lacking in dignity.

        •  actually as another southerner (18+ / 0-)

          I don't consider this a joke: that kind of "but this doesn't happen here" sensibility that liberal folks from other parts of the country are very happy to paint cultural maps with, is something that needs to be addressed.

          The fact that the commenter chose to address it accented with snark is probably a less offensive way to do it than raise the issue directly in a diary that should be focused on the actions.

          You're comment seems to imply that the South is monolithically "awfully racist", while the rest of the US, like this part of MN, is only embarrassingly, opportunistically so, which I'm sure you also know isn't true.

          It's possible to interpret that as "somewhat" insincere, too.

          Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

          by a gilas girl on Sat Jun 16, 2012 at 03:36:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No Northerner makes the argument (0+ / 0-)

            that racism doesn't happen here. That's a strawman.

            Southerners only have strawmen, because underneath, they know their cultures are overall, more racist than those in the North or the West.

            The South is awfully racist, statistically. There are areas of the North that are too, but not really Minnesota. Overall, Minnesota isn't that racist. Just parts of it.

            There are always areas where there's racism in every state, it's just a greyscale as to how much that really defines the state.

            See the rankings below. Minnesota does quite well. The South doesn't.


            •  You'll find plenty of racists in the north (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              grover, rgjdmls, chira2, Kitsap River

              To offer one example, Dave Neiwert has illustrated chronic and ongoing racism in the Pacific Northwest in a series of excellent books.   I certainly have heard Northerners making the claim that racism is a Southern issue.  From my own experience, some of the most overtly racist people I ever met were good Italian Democrats in New Haven, CT.

              •  Some of the insidious racism I've ever seen was (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                samanthab, chira2, Kitsap River

                In the PNW.

                But a look at the history of the Oregon Territory and Oregon state in particular might help explain why Portland and Seattle are two if the whitest cities in the country, and why racism are in the PNW's social DNA.

                Oregon State did not ratify the 15th amendment until 1959. So it's hard to argue this is ancient history done by pioneering folks struggling to survive. These are current OR citizens who left it unratified for over half  of the last  century.



                © grover

                So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

                by grover on Sun Jun 17, 2012 at 12:43:49 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Northern California (0+ / 0-)

                And up were settled by a lot of Okies and Arkies, along with Kansas and Texas folks, back in the Dust Bowl days. Ever see or read "The Grapes of Wrath?" That was about them moving out West when everything dried up in Arkansas, Oklahoma, Kansas and Texas.

                I live in Arkansas, and a lot of the locals have family on the Pacific coast.

                So, I'm not surprised there is racism there, especially toward the Native Americans who their ancestors kicked out of Oklahoma, Kansas, Texas and Arkansas earlier in US history.

                Women create the entire labor force.

                by splashy on Sun Jun 17, 2012 at 04:13:02 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  No, I've lived multiple places, and I don't know (0+ / 0-)

              that, thank you. Here are some links for you:
              Also, your link doesn't actually prove that the South is singularly more racist than the rest of the US. When you start making cracks about how racist PA-ers and NY-ers are, then you might have a case that spoke to evidence rather than regionalism. And if you're going to argue that the South is a monolith, then other regions should receive the same treatment.

              It's debatable, as well, whether West Virginia is even part of the South. It seceded from Virginia and the Confederacy during the Civil War, and it's often characterized as part of the Mid-Atlantic.  

          •  Jokes can highlight things people think are (0+ / 0-)

            true. The best jokes always do.

            Doesn't actually make them true. But it certainly appeals to a certain audience who wants them to be true. But in this case it does mean they're a joke.

            You admit that type of joke is what I'm talking about, only you call it snark.

          •  I am so sick of people blaming the racism (8+ / 0-)

            in this country on the South that I could pull my hair
            out. I was raised in Louisiana. I new live in NYC.
            I am here to tell you that in this metropolis, bastion
            of liberal sensibility, that racism abounds.

            Try to get a cab if you are a POC, try to stay alive if
            you are a POC and some cop get you in his sight.

            The whole "all racism is in the South" thing is a load of crap.
            There are racists and bigots everywhere.  

            The white supremacists have compounds in states
            that could by no means be called in the South like
            Idaho, for instance. .  

            "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

            by rubyr on Sat Jun 16, 2012 at 08:48:56 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •   Okay... (11+ / 0-)

          ...if you want to talk about cross burnings in the South:  

          When a cross burning take place in the South, it's usually the lead story on NBC Nightly News with Brian Williams.

          That's because when a stereotype demands to be reinforced, or if there is a chance a white person can be scared shitless by an isolated incident in rural Alabama that hearkens back to the 1950's, the American media is, without fail,  on it like white on rice.

          Meanwhile, this Minnesota cross burning incident, as far as media attention,  will be reported by 5 small town Minnesota newspapers, 3 liberals blogs & 10 tweets.  And that's it.

          When Fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in excess body fat and carrying a misspelled sign.

          by wyvern on Sat Jun 16, 2012 at 03:50:51 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No, I came here to point out how you're factually (0+ / 0-)

            wrong in your beliefs wrt the West and the North.

            The South is more racist. Minnesota and Alaska aren't that racist, overall.

            They have high profile politicians that are racist. So you noticed them.

            But that's exactly the type of BS analysis you're now trying to change the subject to.

            Just because you noticed Alaska and Minnesota because they got high profile national news  on issues of racism in the form of Palin and Bachmann, it doesn't make your belief that these states are more racist than those in the South true.

            The actual studies wrt actual racism and overall voting habits is a far better clue to actual racism than your self-consciousness wrt Southern culture and its racism.


            •  Education can account for voting patterns. (5+ / 0-)

              An educated person can look at an African American man like President Obama and decide he's a better choice than John McCain --and still be racist.

              It's the "my black friend" phenomenon.  A lot of racists have a black (Latino, Asian, Whatever) friend. That person serves a purpose: he proves to the racist that he's an ok person.

              Voting for President Obama --someone smart, funny, charming, funny, who has a beautiful wife and daughters, etc-- can be self-affirming that way.

              Racists can like Will Smith, Beyonce and Michael Jordan too

              BECAUSE they see these people as exceptions to what THEY THINK "most" blacks are like.

              Now, let's look at the education levels of the deep south vs the north, how many people graduate high school and with what sort of education.   The deep south tends to be at the bottom.  

              I posit that what you're looking at -- voting and racism -- is actually education and  critical decision making skills. When you lack the ability to weed through all the misinformation in campaign ads, you may vote for the guy you're
               most comfortable with even at the most visceral level. When you have the skills to evaluate critically,  you may choose the person that makes the most sense even if he doesn't fit with your bias. But you create a new bias unconsciously: he becomes your black friend and you feel good for doing something that society values: voting for the first AA president.

              And that's why -- I think -- the president's poll numbers tend to bounce. There are quite a few people outside of the south that voted for him and still aren't quite sure about that decision. He has to win them back over all over again.

              I've travelled throughout about 40 states in this union, including Alaska, and I've never seen that the north, east or west has less racism. It's more subtle. But it's definitely there. And honestly, I prefer to be able discern racists from 50 feet away, so I can avoid them, rather than befriend a fellow progressive and be horrified by what they say after they become comfortable with me. But it's there. We are a nation of decent, kind, compassionate good people, with quite a few haters mixed in. And the ratio is pretty much the same no matter where you go.

              © grover

              So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

              by grover on Sun Jun 17, 2012 at 01:18:42 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Please! Are you really so niave as to believe (0+ / 0-)

              one analysis, via highly debatable means, constitutes solid "facts?" You don't understand how research works. Also, you don't seem very interested in how those "facts" break down. Re-read your own link, maybe?

        •  While it is indeed "clever and ironic" it is not (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          a joke and so accusations of lying and insincerity are inappropriate.

          This is a valid and serious point  even with wit involved in the expression of it.

        •  In my life, I moved... (5+ / 0-)

          From Wisconsin, to central Illinois, to a small mountain town in Virginia, and finally to Charlotte, NC.

          Of all the places I've lived, Charlotte is by far the least racially tense.  I mean, we still have our racist degenerates posting trash talk on every Charlotte Observer article about a crime report, but in day to day life, blacks and whites participate in the same activities, shop in the same stores, in many parts of town, live as neighbors.  At the University, we can even (comparably) easily recruit black students into advanced degree programs in the sciences.

          Compare that to, say, Champaign IL.  When I lived there the University was incredibly white, the black population in town was incredibly isolated above a certain street in the north side of town, and the twain shall never meet.

          Northerners don't acknowledge the existence of "sundown towns" but the town where I grew up, Appleton, WI, was one until probably not too long before I was born.  So yeah, not buying it.

          Do you not see that it is the grossest idolatry to speak of the market as though it were the rival of God?

          by kismet on Sun Jun 17, 2012 at 05:59:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  A study by a Harvard doctoral candidate ... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      le sequoit, rgjdmls

      ... claims that racism cost President Barack Obama an estimated 3 to 5 percent of the national popular vote in 2008, yielding his opponent Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) “the equivalent of a home-state advantage country-wide.”

      Stephens-Davidowitz analyzed Google searches from 2004 through 2007 and charted how frequently racial epithets like “nigger” were used in various regions. He did not include data after 2007 “to avoid capturing reverse causation, with dislike for Obama causing individuals to use racially charged language on Google.”

      His study showed that West Virginia was the state with the largest racially charged search rate in the county, while western Pennsylvania, eastern Ohio, upstate New York and southern Mississippi all had high percentages as well.

      From TPM.

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