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View Diary: W/ new reply - My response to an evangelical who assumes Christians must be Republicans (104 comments)

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  •  Ask him where in the Bible abortion is condemned (6+ / 0-)

    As him to give you quotations that specifically reference abortion by name.  That ought to keep the twerp busy for a few years - because the Bible never mentions abortion.  You could follow up by asking why he is blasphemously rewriting the Bible.

    •  this is my point. Quote where the Bible once (3+ / 0-)

      says abortion should be illegal in the US.

      •  How do they prooftext that? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lujane

        They'll concede the Bible doesn't explicitly mention abortion, but they'll cite the verse that says "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you" and the one that says John (I think the Apostle) "leaped for joy in the womb" upon the announcement of Jesus' birth.

        That's how I heard it in the days when I was a Christian.

        liberal bias = failure to validate or sufficiently flatter the conservative narrative on any given subject

        by RockyMtnLib on Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 05:51:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Those are the verses I've heard too. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          RockyMtnLib, Lujane

          With one addition which threw me when I first heard it.  In one of the Psalms, David says something along the lines of "In sin did my mother concieve me."

          I don't find any of these verses convincing.  The Jeremiah passage ("Before I formed you in the womb") is talking about God's foreknowledge, not whether or not the pre-born prophet had a soul.  Inferring pre-natal personhood from that verse, I think, is stretching it.

          The Luke Chapter 1 verse about Elizabeth's child leaping in her womb could maybe imply that the pre-born John the Baptist already posessed a soul, except that it could be used to equally support the old Medieval belief that ensoulment occured at the time of the "quickening", the stage in a pregnancy when the mother first feels the child moving.

          Then theres the David passage from Psalms.  Nope.  I don't buy that one either.  It's talking about David's parents, not his unborn state.  I'll maybe buy it as a proof text for the doctrine of Original Sin, the idea that sinful human nature is something we inherit from our sinful parents; but other than having the word "conceive" in it, the verse doesn't really say anything about when David got his soul.

          "All the World's a Stage and Everyone's a Critic." -- Mervyn Alquist

          by quarkstomper on Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 06:51:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Even if it is true that the correct interpretation (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Lujane, blueoasis

            of those passages is that God imbues a soul onto us the moment we're conceived, it's still a question-begging argument as to 1) whether this God is real and 2) whether everybody should be bound by laws based on said beliefs, whether or not we share them.

            They would have a doctor and pregnant woman thrown in jail (some would have them executed) for performing a medical procedure that offends their beliefs that aren't scientifically established and that not everyone holds.

            liberal bias = failure to validate or sufficiently flatter the conservative narrative on any given subject

            by RockyMtnLib on Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 07:03:36 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  I'm sure they would tell you (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      blueoasis

      "Though shalt not kill."
      Of course that only applies to abortion and not contrived wars.

      •  Don't forget the "innocent life" canard (0+ / 0-)

        liberal bias = failure to validate or sufficiently flatter the conservative narrative on any given subject

        by RockyMtnLib on Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 07:29:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  it actually says do not murder (0+ / 0-)

        and that doesn't mean quite the same thing.  Murder is unjustified, not accidental, not war related, not justice system related killing.  

        Abortion is considered a medical procedure to save the life of a woman.  Abortion is considered an unfortunate necessity, not a sin or a moral issue of any kind - and we've felt that way for thousands of years.

        Women are the core of Jewish life - without mothers who can raise their children as Jews our culture suffers.  

        Without women there are no Jews - we are a matriarchal culture - your mother is what makes you a Jew.  Better to have a smaller family than lose a mother to death in childbirth and leave a father with little ones and a newborn alone.  

        And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

        by Mortifyd on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 01:27:06 AM PDT

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    •  The typical answer is (0+ / 0-)

      "thou shalt not kill"

      The real question is when does life start?

      After the Republicans burn down the world, they will prove the Democrats did it.

      by jimraff on Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 06:13:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Not so. (0+ / 0-)

      There is an abortion in the Bible administered by a Temple priest as a trial for jealousy.

      I used to be Snow White. And then I drifted. - Mae West

      by CherryTheTart on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 01:00:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  for adultery not jealousy (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        CherryTheTart

        but yes.

        And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

        by Mortifyd on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 01:24:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Can you read the OT in a language other (0+ / 0-)

          ... than English? I regret I cannot.

          As I understand it there is no proof necessary. The husband may only suspect. That can be jealousy. I may be wrong. I will go and check it.

          I used to be Snow White. And then I drifted. - Mae West

          by CherryTheTart on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 02:55:20 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  yeah, Hebrew. It's the Torah to me. (0+ / 0-)

            Jewish law is actually quite strict on the subject of accusing people of serious offenses - it requires 2 independent actual witnesses of the act in question.  We have Oral Law in addition to the text of Torah that is required to understand our system of justice and culture.

            It is adultery, not jealousy.

            And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

            by Mortifyd on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 04:03:21 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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